Why Not Registering Your Guns is a Mistake

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Read chapter one of "Resistance to Tyranny" by Joseph P. Martino and you'll find examples of a direct correlation between gun control and genocide.
Turkey, Soviet Union, Germany, China, Uganda, Cambodia, Afghanistan, etc...

Gun registration leads to confiscation. When Hitler came into power he used the existing gun registry (put in place by liberals) to confiscate firearms then banned private ownership in 1938. This didn't end well for the Jews or political opponents to the Nazi party. Even here in the US we passed laws preventing slaves from owning firearms and even after slavery was abolished, states persisted in prohibiting blacks from owning firearms by renaming existing "slave codes" to "black codes". The best way to control and exploit people is to disarm them. The only way to disarm the people is to first find out who owns firearms then 5 or 10 years later you ban firearms then you confiscate them; or, in the DC v Heller case, you wait for someone to defend their life in their own home then arrest the homeowner for felony possession of a firearm.

Cesare Beccaria said:
laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.

Stephen Halbrook said:
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/article-nazilaw.pdf
Gun control laws are depicted as benign and historically progressive. However, German firearm laws and hysteria created against Jewish firearm owners played a major role in laying the groundwork for the eradication of German Jewry in the Holocaust.

Justice Felix Frankfurter said:
We are in danger of forgetting that the Bill of Rights reflects experience with police excesses. It is not only under Nazi rule that police excesses are inimical to freedom. It is easy to make light of insistence on scrupulous regard for the safeguards of civil liberties when invoked on behalf of the unworthy. It is too easy. History bears testimony that by such disregard are the rights of liberty extinguished, heedlessly at first, then stealthily, and brazenly in the end.

Adolph Hitler said:
The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing.
 
Here is the video coverage of an incident in Texas, wherein the guy being arrested made the Texas DPS aware that he was coming well in advance.

Even after he shows the arresting officer the Texas statute which clearly states his sidearm of choice is NOT illegal in ANY way, the subject still gets arrested.

Would registration have helped?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU_EY-tsYOI
 
Powder,

While your questions are off topic I will answer them once again.

I stated my personal beliefs in Post 86.

However for your convenience;

I do not and will not make any statements either Publicly, on the Internet, on Discussion Forums, on Twitter, on Facebook or any other media advocating civil disobidence and breaking the law.

This decision is a personal choice each individual must make for themselves.

Whether you should call in the serial numbers of your guns to the Police has been discussed on other threads.
 
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In the immortal words of Sheldon Cooper, "I accept your premise. I reject your conclusion."

Saying what they want you to say, letting them rummage through your house, quartering troops in your home, etc. are all easier, keep you "not a criminal," and fit nicely with their plans. I'm not seeing how any of that is much different from telling the freed slaves not to fight for their voting rights. After all, staying home on the first Tuesday in November isn't against the law...

Interesting discussion, though.
 
Chicago is being required to do away with its firearms registry (started in 1968) to comply with court rulings that included legalizing CCW.

The database in Chicago has about 8,650 gun owners and 22,000 firearms listed (Chicago Tribune).

U Chicago Crime Lab estimates 156,000 Chicago households have guns. Which means a lot of noncompliance with the registry (even though one can quibble that the registry "8,650 gunowners" and the Crime Lab "156,000 households" are two different things).

The value of the registry to officer safety was doubtful but academic Jens Ludwig of the U Chi Crime Lab is upset. Former dean of the U Chi Law School the late Norvall Morris (nee New Zealand, educated in Australia and UK) was a big gun control advocate with influence on the Chicago school of gun control, advocating suspension of 4A in gun searches, for example.

Now Chicago has to abandon its firearms registry. O Tempora! O Mores! The Apocalypse is upon us! Disaster of biblical proportions looms o'er us: what is next? Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria? The awakening of Cthulhu?
 
As for the US being particularly violent, it simply is not when compared to the rest of the world. Our homicide rates are well toward the bottom of the countries of the world, and it is propaganda to say otherwise. Check homicide rates by country on wikipedia.

Secondly, Why does this conversation solely surround firearms? Is anyone curious why this argument only applies to guns? There are far more effective ways to commit mass mayhem, and yet we do not require the registration or NICS checking for those purchasing fuel, or any number of other household items that could easily wreak more destruction than firearms. Thank God the recent school shooter did not visit his evil on that elementary school with a few bike chains and a few gallons of gasoline.

So why the fixation on guns?

Registration is floated as an objective by our rulers for one reason, and one alone. An armed populace is a fourth check and balance on their power, and many that hold and desire to expand their power do not appreciate the threat of that leverage.

I will not counter those that will surely respond that guns can kill most effectively in mass murder. That is simply not true, but I refuse to list many more effective means in a public forum. Suffice it to say it is not rocket science. We are fragile creatures.

Guns are fixated upon for one reason, it serves a political purpose to do so.
 
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My questions are right on target.

Your answers are more red herring.


How is not registering firearms, in states where it is not mandated by law or ordinance, giving substance to the anti-gunners?

Where is your limit of compliance, with non-laws, per 2A rights?
 
Where is your limit of compliance, with non-laws, per 2A rights?

My guns were legally purchased, are legally carried, legally possessed and safely stored. I will not participate in any law that seeks to criminalize any objects I legally acquired or posses, guns or otherwise. I am constitutionally guaranteed to be secure in my personal effects, and I choose to exercise that right.

I'm willing to be a test case if it comes to that, at which point I will be soliciting the assistance of my friends on this board. There is a line for everyone, and completing a form on a website identifying every firearm I own, along with serial numbers for each? Well, I simply cannot imagine voluntarily performing that exercise. I'm not a fringe lunatic. I'm a banker for crying out loud. We all have our limits though, and that one is mine.
 
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This decision is a personal choice each individual must make for themselves.

So why the post on a public forum? The premise takes for granted that non-compliance is a non-option based on the OP's own set of rules, admittedly based on his own personal feelings/experiences/conclusions. That is simply not the case for all, and more importantly shouldn't be assumed so when forming/predicting strategy or behavior at large. The more interesting question and discussion I think is what would motivate one to take the various possible (not "acceptable") courses of action with regard to an onerous registration scheme foisted upon them.

1- Comply. Weighing penalties, benefits, and prediction of future events, a person taking this route would rely most upon the latter; either the registration and subsequent infringements are permanent/unassailable and therefore not worth resisting civilly, or they are expected to be overturned with such rapidity that there is no benefit to risking non-compliance (my advice to NY SAFE-ers ;) ) on principle if a good test-case is already pending. Compliance makes sense when the outcome for violation is predictable, and there is no need to test the waters. You can still work against the law with no fear of repercussion this way :), but you are capable of being ignored :(

2- Do not Comply. Carrying much more risk, far fewer people take this option, and those who do so will tend to be motivated less by logic or self interest than by principle or emotion. They will also be much more radical and extreme being ruled by those double-edged swords and will be very much capable of hurting our image (which is different than hurting our cause, btw) with their loony stylings. They will also be far, far more charismatic and motivational for meaker resistors. Non-compliance will increase as risk decreases, of course, so the more resistors and weaker penalties/enforcement, the more impotent the law. More dangerous than compliance, but swords won more battles than boiled eggs for a reason.

This "nuclear option" carries the very significant but often overlooked hazard of poking holes in the wet paper bag we call law and order. Widespread disobedience forms a real danger to the system of law and damages the state's ability to manage our affairs, both wisely and malevolently; much like Chemo. One of the consequences of the Civil Rights movement's damage to faith in southern local governance is that were are no longer 'permitted' to manage our own elections or redistricting free of Imperial interference as expressly delineated in the Constitution. A large portion of the newfound resistance against federal gun laws stems from our decades-old inability to enforce similarly ham-fisted drug laws.

In short, compliance makes sense when the fate of the law is a foregone conclusion; when resisting it would change/prove nothing. Or when sufficient legal means exist to effect the desired changes with far less risk than non-compliance. Resistance serves to disrupt the "status quo" and generate momentum in times of stalemate or oppression --to one side or the other, depending on who's resisting ;)

I would argue civil disobedience is extremely helpful and productive if you can control/manage the people doing the resisting. If you merely uncork the bottle and allow a bunch of unhinged jerks to descend on the capital and wreck havoc, you irreparably damage your reputation. If you can get people to behave civilly while they disobey, you will win respect, and even admiration for your cause. I have no idea how Dr. King's people kept their protestors peaceful as much as they did. God knows a large portion of those folks were itching to start a violent riot at any time, but the "better angels" amongst the crowd kept those forces at bay. If the textbooks were filled with massive riots that destroyed our biggest cities and killed thousands, I doubt we'd look upon the movement with such loving eyes. It is important to remember, that regardless of the potentialities, there has been no recent armed march on anything that ended in wholesale bloodshed or civil war in this nation. Even less recent with violence initiated by the protestors (Bonus Army, maybe?). Remember those are the same warnings against concealed guns and private ownership, so take the naysayers with a grain of salt.

I believe legitimacy is still firmly on our side, and that resistance in the most corrupted and irredeemable places would only be justified (not recommended or even wise) if the last remaining footholds of legal protection slide into the ocean (because those places are all coastal, you see :D). The need is not quite there yet, since we still have a couple hopeful court cases rapidly moving to the front burner which could settle the issue peaceably, and onerous new laws are still being fended off in places as hostile in California (if only occasionally). Nationally, we more or less have what momentum there is on the gun issue, and nothing short of a dude with a CCW saving the president could advance our cause more than it is already. Separating ourselves from irrelevant distractions like the Naval Yard shooting is far more important (I mean no disrespect to the severity of the incident, and may peace be with the victims and their families, but it has nothing to do with gun rights)

A better thread title would be "Why Not Registering Your Guns Now Would be a Mistake" or "Why Civil Disobedience is not Yet Justified." There is a tipping point where compliance is more harmful than productive --though we are not quite there yet, it is unwise to deny that point's effect. A national compulsory formal registry* would be dangerously close to that point, and mandatory confiscation well beyond it. It's all a matter of perspective. Whatever the case, I agree that hidden noncompliance is truly unproductive. Turn in your guns or overtly refuse, because hidden guns with no wielder are the proverbial "uncocked unloaded" pistol of no use to anyone.

TCB

*Though ATF forms and PRISM may be able to generate a list for the Feds with all gun owners on it, they are expressly forbidden by law from doing so. The list will therefore remain both hidden, and unusable for widespread enforcement tasks. Court cases would be thrown out by the thousands, and nihilist goose-stepping heavies confiscating guns is a figment of the imagination (until we start widely deploying land-drone Robocops and Terminators in about five years' time). Allowing the Feds legitimate access to make such a list is far more dangerous, as that allows them to legally begin drawing closed the list of 'approved' persons who may legally be 'permitted' to keep and bear arms. After all, the Bill of Rights only applies to freemen and not slaves...er, "felons" ;)

TCB
 
Legal civil disobedience...

Find a couple friends. Every day, we swap guns and have them re-registered. Hope the movement spreads.
Assuming only 12% of gun owners would get on board, 8 million or so gun owners all registering two or three guns a week should put some pressure on the system.

If you can't beat them in congress and you can't beat them in court, beat them when it comes time to count out the money.
Overpower their system, deplete their resources, and leave them with a smoking hole of a registration system that's useless for anything.
 
I would argue civil disobedience is extremely helpful and productive if you can control/manage the people doing the resisting

I suspect most doing the disobeying would be simple folks that simply want to left alone. They were not breaking the law yesterday, and now someone 1800 miles away signs a sheet of paper declaring they are breaking the law today? I see millions saying, "nice try. Leave me alone."

I suggest they should be. To say that those peacefully disobeying an unjust law risk the destruction of the social fabric, I disagree. The ones passing such silly laws carry that Responsibility.

We need to engage the political process to keep it from coming to that. As for peaceful demonstrations, it was not our civility that won Heller and McDonald. It was a razor thin 5/4 court, 3 of whom will be 80 or older when our next president is elected, including two that were in the majority for both cases.
 
In today’s society you need to pick your words carefully when using the Internet, Twitter and even your cellphone. Who would have believed a few months ago the massive domestic evesdropping by the NSA? Or how about a secret court that allows the judge to issue search and arrest warrants to Federal agents?

Who, indeed? I mean, what history do we have to show that this was such an unbelievable thing before just a few months ago?


Carnivore, 1998:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_(software)


Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act


Security requirements at various agencies for years have directed that no conversations which discuss security sensitive material take place in any vehicle with OnStar or similar technology installed and enabled. Also that cell phones be either prohibited or the batteries removed during meetings when security senstiive material is discussed. I remember reading a SPAWAR security article in Charleston, SC about the OnStar bit way back in 2002.


Remember way back in the early ninties when people, companies, and government agencies were working on "security" methods to protect data? Uncle Sam was pushing pretty hard for hardware encryption techniques..."chips", like the Clipper Chip as an example, which could be instaled int he manufacturing of equipment to provide security. Unless, of course, any government agency wanted to listen in through the. Of course, hardware can't be changed as conveniently as software for encryption purposes. When strong, commercially available encryption software became available to the common man, suddenly it became possible for every citizen to encrypt his data so that even the government oculd not decrypt it. Yes, there was some resistance to this movement. Wonder why? Look up "key escrow".


I'm a retired submariner. Maybe you'd like to google "Operation Ivy Bells" and see what we were capable of doing in the early 70's with respect to submarine surveillance back then. Then take in what I was told by a Radioman in my early days of submarining when I asked what we were capable of monitoring. His answer: "DC to Daylight".


It's long been known that computer lines that are too close to phone lines, such as a length of computer cable that runs parallel to phone lines, can be sources of security leaks because data can be mined from the phone lines.


Not to mention lots of other government spying efforts that have come to light, long before the advent of computers and cell phones. The old fashioned way involving breaking and entering has long been a favorite. Remember Watergate?
 
Your Fifth premise is wrong. Americans, historically, do not trust the central government. We believe that a government that fears our guns is to be feared.

So why has State and Federal Government grown so large?

Huh??? The overgrowth of government does NOT equate trust in the government. If anything, it equates to Government's cavalier disregard of the people. Creating laws, agencies, and departments to cover every aspect of life only happens through the APATHY and GREED of the people, not trust and respect.

I have a Seventh premise for you;
Civil disobedience is a time honored form of protest in the US


Where is civil disobedience against gun control laws in New York, California and the other states that passed anti-gun laws this year? You must have not been around in the 1960's when real civil disobedience took place.

HUH??? The civil disobedience is in EVERY owner that refuses to register the arms in CA, NY and others. Think there are none? "Civil Disobedience" is in everyone that has ever refused to follow a bad law. Civil turbulence and civil disobedience are not the same thing. Yes, I was a witness to the 60s and 70s.
 
splattergun said:
...The civil disobedience is in EVERY owner that refuses to register the arms in CA, NY and others...
Nope, that's not civil disobedience. That's just violating the law.

splattergun said:
...Where is civil disobedience against gun control laws in New York, California and the other states that passed anti-gun laws this year? You must have not been around in the 1960's when real civil disobedience took place...
For a discussion of civil disobedience and why the Civil Rights Movement is a poor model for the struggle for the RKBA, see this thread and especially this post:
Frank Ettin said:
klyph said:
I was recently chastised for encouraging illegal activity on this board. My wording was thus (omitting the vulgarity): "They cannot pass legislation infringing the RKBA. If they do, it is illegal and we need to let them know that it will not be tolerated or followed." ....I will admit from a certain point of view that what I said does indeed encourage the violations of laws that individuals deem unconstitutional. ....Historical figures such as Susan B Anthony, Rosa Parks, and Dr Martin Luther king used civil disobedience to non violently overturn unconstitutional laws. We regard them as heroes, yet they were very clearly criminals by definition. ....a later surge of such criminal activity served to sway the decision of the courts in the opposite direction. ....history demonstrates the very effective technique of non violent civil disobedience in large numbers as an arguably superior method of reform. Why then, is such discussion shunned and prohibited by this site as verboten? ...
klyph said:
...this thread was not meant to be about how to go about it, or to organize or advocate for such practice. It is meant as a question: why are these discussions prohibited and what is the reasoning behind disallowing the discussion of such activism?...

  1. The short answer is that you were not advocating or opening discussion of civil disobedience. You were simply advocating violating the law.

    You had written:
    klyph said:
    ...They cannot pass legislation infringing the RKBA. If they do, it is illegal and we need to let them know that it will not be tolerated or followed...
    And that in good English is simply advocating threating to refuse to abide by laws we don't like. And you also wrote:
    klyph said:
    Last time I checked, there were illegal laws all over this country that infringe upon an enumerated constitutional right to bear arms.

    And there are free men all over this country that refuse to abide by them. Their numbers are growing.
    So by clear implication you were condoning the widespread and surreptitious flouting of firearms laws.

    Simply refusing to abide by firearm laws, and hiding your unregistered, sawed-off shotgun under the floorboards of your house waiting for "the balloon to go up", is not civil disobedience. Civil disobedience as an instrument of social change must he open and organized, and to hope to be effective it must be well thought out and part of a larger strategy.

    So your claim that this site disallows the discussion of civil disobedience because you were taken to task for the posts referred to above is utterly fatuous. Nothing you wrote or were chastised for laid any kind of foundation for a serious discussion of civil disobedience as a tactic in the struggle for the RKBA.

    As an:
    ...online discussion board dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership...
    the simple advocacy or condoning of violation of the law is unacceptable here.

  2. Since whether and what forms of civil disobedience could materially advance the RKBA, exploration of that subject would need to go far beyond mere reference to refusing to follow the law.

    • Civil disobedience as laying the foundation for litigation.

      One common use of the tactic of civil disobedience has been to get an issue in front of a court. To be effective for that purpose, the violation of the law should be carefully chosen and planned to get the issue before the right court in the right way. This has been shown to be very important in Second Amendment litigation. Much unfortunate Second Amendment case law has come out criminal defense attorneys routinely tossing in a Second Amendment challenge whenever they have a drug dealer or armed robber client facing a weapons enhancement.

      There is also the question of whether this would even be useful to us at this time. There are currently over 70 major RKBA cases pending at various stages in various federal courts around the country. Many of these cases are part of an organized litigation strategy designed to begin to add clarity and dimension to the ruling in Heller and McDonald.

    • Civil disobedience to sway public sentiment

      This was a core and very effective part of the overall strategy of the Civil Rights Movement (referring to the struggle during the 1950s and 1960s for racial equality). Let's think about why and how civil disobedience worked so well in that context.

      The acts of civil disobedience, violations of law, involved very normal, benign, human acts: taking a seat on a bus for the ride home after a hard day at work; sitting at a lunch counter to have a meal; a child registering to attend school; registering to vote; voting; etc. These are normal, every day thing that White folks took for granted. And it became profoundly disturbing for many White to see other humans arrested for doing these normal, benign things simply because of the color of their skin.

      A tired black woman arrested for taking a seat on a bus is something that many ordinary people could respond sympathetically to. Does anyone really think that a man arrested for the illegal possession of a gun is likely to produce anything like a similar degree of sympathy in a non-gun owner -- especially after Columbine, Virginia Tech and Sandy Hook?

  3. Indeed the Civil Rights Movement in many ways is a poor model for the struggle for the RKBA.

    Different times, different causes, different social, political and legal climates.

    When Rosa Parks shook things up, her actions won wide support in editorials in major newspapers, from pulpits in houses of worship across the country and on college campus.

    The Civil Rights Movement of the '50s was the culmination of 100+ years of abolitionist and civil rights activity. It had broad and deep support. The goals of the Civil Rights Movement were promoted regularly in sermons in churches and synagogues all across the nation. The Civil Rights Movement had charismatic leaders like Martin Luther King who could inspire the country.

    During the days of the Civil Rights Movement of the '50s and '60s, civil disobedience, as favorably reported by the mainstream media, and as favorably commented upon on college campuses and in sermons in houses of worship across the nation, helped generate great public sympathy for the cause. That sympathy helped lead to the election of pro-civil rights legislators and executives. And that led to the enactment of pro-civil rights laws.

    How has the public thus far responded to the thus far minimal "civil disobedience" of RKBA advocates? Where have there been any great outpourings of sympathy for the plight of gun owners, especially from non-gun owners -- as whites showed sympathy for the plight of non-whites during the days of the Civil Rights Movement? Where are the editorials in the New York Times and Washington Post lauding the courage of gun owners in their resistance to the oppression of anti-gun prejudice? Who has heard a pro-gun rights sermon in his church? Where are the pro-gun rights rallies on college campuses? Where are non-gun owners joining with gun owners in pro-gun rights demonstrations, just as whites joined with non-whites in marches and demonstrations during the Civil Rights Movement? Where are our charismatic leaders inspiring the nation?

    During the Civil Rights Movement a largely sympathetic media was able to build widespread public sympathy for the cause. Today a popular media largely hostile to the RKBA helps build fear and antagonism.

  4. Perhaps there are ways in which some forms of civil disobedience could help further the RKBA.

    There may be no reason to a priori completely dismiss civil disobedience as a tool to further the RKBA. But any effective use of that tactic will be more complicated than just violation gun laws we don't like; and any serious discussion of the topic must also acknowledge and address that complexity.
 
If civil disobedience is a poor choice, what about civil over-obedience?

Get a group of guys to show up at an FFL and have a registration/transfer party. Spend the whole day transferring guns back and forth and registering them to each other. All you'd need is a somewhat friendly FFL, a bunch of like-minded people, and a handful of old single barrel shotguns.

If it's registration they want, give them all the registrations you possibly can.

How many registrations could a fifty guys generate in an 8 hour shift? Maybe we could have THR competitions to see who can get the most registrations in that amount of time. We could have registration flash-mobs. Especially if you have to go to a police station to register anything... We could tie up a police station for weeks on end simply complying with the law.

Truth is, it may be impossible for a group of armed men packing military style rifles to gain the sympathy that a tired black lady riding a bus can.
But still, they couldn't use your compliance with the law against you. Not even if you and everyone you knew were complying with the law three times a day.
 
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Third most, if not all, Americans, regardless of political parties, agree that criminals need to be taken off the street. This is supported by the push across the nation for stiffer penalties such as less probation/parole, jail time and longer sentences.

data from the National Criminal Justice Reference Service (NCJRS), which found in 2010, of 6 million Americans who applied to buy a gun, less than 2 percent -- or 76,000 -- were denied. Of those, the ATF referred 4,732 cases for prosecution. Of them, just 44 were prosecuted, and only 13 were punished for lying or buying a gun illegally.

The National Center for State Courts in Williamsburg, Va., found that the percentage of felonies taken to trial in nine states with available data fell to 2.3 percent in 2009, from 8 percent in 1976.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/us/tough-sentences-help-prosecutors-push-for-plea-bargains.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
 
If civil disobedience is a poor choice, what about civil over-obedience?

Get a group of guys to show up at an FFL and have a registration/transfer party. Spend the whole day transferring guns back and forth and registering them to each other. All you'd need is a somewhat friendly FFL, a bunch of like-minded people, and a handful of old single barrel shotguns.
If it's registration they want, give them all the registrations you possibly can.

How many registrations could a fifty guys generate in an 8 hour shift? Maybe we could have THR competitions to see who can get the most registrations in that amount of time. We could have registration flash-mobs. Especially if you have to go to a police station to register anything... We could tie up a police station for weeks on end simply complying with the law.

Truth is, it may be impossible for a group of armed men packing military style rifles to gain the sympathy that a tired black lady riding a bus can.
But still, they couldn't use your compliance with the law against you. Not even if you and everyone you knew were complying with the law three times a day.

Oh, yeah...at about $30 a pop, a group of "fifty guys" could generate a TON of revenue for said shop. Considering a single round of 50 transfers would generate $1,500 dollars, I'm sure there are a few local gun shops who wouldn't mind that. Heck, they'll probably have free pizza and drinks to generate more business!

Because I can guarantee you that though YOU may consider it a simple case of "over-obedience", THEY will consider it valuable time that you will be paying for, just like every other Joe out there.

If you do...I'd recommend you work with the FFL's in question and give them a heads up so they can figure up the time and effort they'll have to put in lining their pockets with your cash!

:neener:
 
If you do...I'd recommend you work with the FFL's in question and give them a heads up so they can figure up the time and effort they'll have to put in lining their pockets with your cash!

Or, just maybe, there could be a couple actual patriots out there who'd be willing to help something like this move.

Obviously, I'd prefer to never have to worry about unconventional methods of fighting registration.
But if I did, I'd like to have a back up plan.

As noted, civil disobedience is a probably going to be hard thing to pull off in defending RKBA. It's just hard to make a bunch of armed people look like victims.

If you've got a better idea than mine I'd love to hear it.

(Or we could just hang our heads in despair and rant on the internet instead.)

But even if it did cost me $30 once a week to do this... I've wasted $30 a night in bars more times than I care to admit.

What kind of a citizen would I be if I can blow $30 on stupidity, but not on defending the Bill of Rights?
 
I'm glad Americans 238 years ago didn't listen to the people saying "why not paying these British taxes is a mistake"

I'm glad they read Thomas Paine's common sense instead.

Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
"The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the Repbublic -Tacitus
 
If you've got a better idea than mine I'd love to hear it.

(Or we could just hang our heads in despair and rant on the internet instead.)

But even if it did cost me $30 once a week to do this... I've wasted $30 a night in bars more times than I care to admit.

What kind of a citizen would I be if I can blow $30 on stupidity, but not on defending the Bill of Rights?

Actually, I do have a better idea.

As Frank pointed out in post #120, keep the momentum going in the fights in the courts:

"There are currently over 70 major RKBA cases pending at various stages in various federal courts around the country. Many of these cases are part of an organized litigation strategy designed to begin to add clarity and dimension to the ruling in Heller and McDonald."

These court battles are where the future lies with respect to our RKBA. That's the meat and potatoes of everything we hold dear about the RKBA. Everything else is a distraction from the real deal and will lead to ruin. Once the battles are fought and won, and they ARE being won, then continued diligence becomes much easier for us and much more difficult for future generations to tear down.

As for that $30 a week...I'd rather put that towards ammunition and maybe an extra gun once in a while. $1,560 a year would go a long way in helping to keep my ammo stocked up.

:evil:
 
Actually, I do have a better idea.

As Frank pointed out in post #120, keep the momentum going in the fights in the courts:

Courts are great. I like courts when they rule the way I want (sort of) on cases like Heller v. D.C.
But they don't always rule the way I want. Counting only on the courts is risky.
After all, Heller only went our way by one vote, right?
That's not my idea of a sure thing.

Also, why is it so inconceivable that there could be FFL's around who'd get on board with tying up a registration system out of patriotism?
I joined the Army partly out of patriotism (not entirely, but partly). If there are people willing to put their lives at risk for patriotism, why would you assume that there wouldn't be people willing to help out with a harebrained idea like this for the same reason?

At any rate, let's hope we never have to try something like this out... and that we never have to rely on the courts to save us from a gun registry.
 
Your Fifth premise is wrong. Americans, historically, do not trust the central government. We believe that a government that fears our guns is to be feared.

So why has State and Federal Government grown so large?

What exactly does the size of the state or federal governments have to do with trust?
The Soviet Union government was huge... you think people trusted them?
The Chinese government is huge... you think people trust them?

The size of OUR government has nothing whatsoever to do with "trust".

The State and Federal government have grown so large because it is the nature of people in a democratic form of government to use the police/taxing/regulating power of government to gain an advantage for themselves. This means politicians gaining power for themselves by using their office to gain "stuff"... food stamps, health care, emergency aid, schools, roads, tax breaks, regulations, etc... for their constituents (both individuals and businesses).
 
Courts are great. I like courts when they rule the way I want (sort of) on cases like Heller v. D.C.
But they don't always rule the way I want. Counting only on the courts is risky.
After all, Heller only went our way by one vote, right?
That's not my idea of a sure thing.

Also, why is it so inconceivable that there could be FFL's around who'd get on board with tying up a registration system out of patriotism?
I joined the Army partly out of patriotism (not entirely, but partly). If there are people willing to put their lives at risk for patriotism, why would you assume that there wouldn't be people willing to help out with a harebrained idea like this for the same reason?

At any rate, let's hope we never have to try something like this out... and that we never have to rely on the courts to save us from a gun registry.

Like it or not, the courts are EXACTLY where this matter needs to be decided, and rightfully so. We cannot afford to allow ourselves to be distracted otherwise.

And I never said it would be "inconceivable" that some FFL's would [tie] up a registration system out of patriotism. But FFL's, most especially those involved in LGS's, also have a business to run. Tying up their people behind a counter filling out multiple iterations of transfer paperwork for large groups of people (heck, even a small group of people in this instance) is extremely time consuming and a waste of their valuable business time.

That's why I recommended calling ahead. This way arrangements could be made, IF the particular FFL would agree to it.

And yes...if the matter of gun registry does come up, then it WILL have to be fought in the courts.

We have a legal system for a purpose. We're oblitgated to bust our humps with every effort to make that system work before we venture off the beaten path to other avenues. Getting the legal system to recognise, in writing through various court decisions, these various aspects ofour RKBA is what produces a lasting and BINDING result.Nothing else will.
 
We have a legal system for a purpose. We're oblitgated to bust our humps with every effort to make that system work before we venture off the beaten path to other avenues. Getting the legal system to recognise, in writing through various court decisions, these various aspects ofour RKBA is what produces a lasting and BINDING result.Nothing else will.

unfortunately some bells can't be unrung....

Once you register, you have registered, even if the courts come out and strike down registration, you have already registered. If they decide to retroactively ban certain guns, if you turn them in and they are destroyed....even if the courts strike down the bans, those guns are gone and you've lost money.

Kind of like plenty of other horrible laws in the past, like forced sterilization which was the vogue in the early 20th century. Can't undo that....

I think California proves that sometimes we will never get what we want through the current legal system. They just keep passing more and more bans. What if the entire nation were like that and you couldn't just simply move away from it?
 
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