Why Not The Bullseye Stance?

[Water-Man]

Sam1911...Like it or not, everything we've all learned is because of the wisdom of the old-timers.

 

[Sam1911]

Sam1911...Like it or not, everything we've all learned is because of the wisdom of the old-timers.

Yup. And where would science be without Aristotle, Da Vinci, Issac Newton, Antoine Lavoisier, Albert Einstein, and thousands of "old-timers?" They advanced the art to new understanding which was revolutionary -- for it's time. Our respect for their accomplishments doesn't mean we believe all ... or even ANY ... of the things they believed or discovered. Using their discoveries as stepping stones, we've moved far beyond what they knew, thought, or taught us.

There was once a computer guy who famously claimed that, "No one will need more than 637 kb of memory for a personal computer." IIRC, he recovered from that lapse of judgment and eventually did o.k. for himself.

 

[Cosmoline]

Using two hands isn't something new.

And wasn't the method of gripping the strong hand wrist with the weak hand used as well? I've seen that from time to time in old photos. Heck I don't think many can shoot some of the old monster revolvers or the big horse pistols without a supporting hand. As I understand it, Weaver introduced the idea of creating a dynamic tension, which ran counter to virtually every principle of pistol shooting. It wasn't just a supporting hand, it was a hand that would pull back! It's as if someone told you to hold a rifle by pulling back hard with the off hand. Very radical.

 

[valorius]

I actually like a quick drop to a low kneeling position for maximizing speed and accuracy while also minimizing the target i present.

 

[Boris bush]

Dropping also lessens the chances of a miss or pass through from hitting unwanted targets.....

 

[valorius]

No one seems to teach or practice it, but it's what i've always done when i've practiced drawing, either at home or at an outdoor range where you can do such things.

 

[Sam1911]

It isn't totally unheard of, but the time and place have to be appropriate.

The first thing trainers will tell you to do though is MOVE, "Get off the 'X'," etc., not to take up an even more firmly rooted posture. A moving target (especially moving against the attacker's strong side) is much harder to engage than a stationary target -- even one that's dropped down to 1/2 it's height. Kneeling, your target size (Center of mass) is still the same ... just lower.

Dropping to a knee to use low cover is great, if there's some to be had.

In some instances lowering your position absolutely could change your shot angle enough to reduce the risk to a bystander or hostage.

 

[Boris bush]

Dropping to a knee might be useful when cover is not available or if the family is headed that way and I do not want fire following them. It is also very stable. It would not be my first choice, but being practiced for any situation is never a bad idea....

 

[Sam1911]

Dropping to a knee might be useful when cover is not available

Actually, I was saying the opposite. If cover ISN'T available, then rooting to one spot is probably not a great idea. Movement makes your opponent less likely to hit you.

In the absence of cover, would you rather be an 18"x30" target bobbing, ducking, and moving counter to the bad-guy's aim, or an 18"x30" target sitting rooted to a spot on the ground?

And my plans for my family's safety don't involve me slowing down to become an easy target and draw fire ... in any violent encounter we're involved in, I'd already be the prime target. No bad guy is going to assess my family's threat profile and decide to ignore the big adult with a gun and shoot at the kids -- just doesn't make sense.

Kneeling is pretty stable. Maybe if you had to make one of those semi-legendary long-range self-defense shots it would be of benefit. But at distances under 25 yds (which would seem to cover 99% of "self-defense") I can make the shots faster and just as accurately freestyle standing -- and I don't have to stand back up to continue to move and avoid catching bullets.

But if you've got something substantial to cover or conceal you (fire hydrant, wall, tree stump, etc.) then it certainly is a sensible thing to have practiced.

 

[shockwave]

As I understand it, Weaver introduced the idea of creating a dynamic tension, which ran counter to virtually every principle of pistol shooting. It wasn't just a supporting hand, it was a hand that would pull back!

This is a principle in the martial arts. Both with weapons and with empty hand postures, pulling-toward while pushing-against is a way of forming a strong, dynamic structure. If your shoulder blades are working in that kind of grip, you're doing it right.

 

[valorius]

I think if i drop to a knee as i draw and fire on a single attacker the fight will be over in less than 2 seconds, one way or another, the overwhelming majority of the time.

Also, if you do it a certain way, your thigh and weak side arm can completely cover all the important parts of your body that you don't want shot- well, except your head. (it looks almost like a VERY low modified weaver when done this way) Clearly your arm or thigh wont stop all rounds, but they'll stop some, and they'll greatly reduce the power of any that do penetrate.

I'm only 5'7" to begin with, so in a crouch i am a very small target, and as Boris has pointed out, it is an extremely stable stance, and i am a better than average shot to begin with, i think.

I am sure there are "better ways", but it's what i do. If nothing else, because it is not widely practiced, it could give me an element of surprise.

That being said, if it's multiple attackers and they're armed, and i think they're more competent than mere gang bangers, it's a damn good bet i'll be shooting and scooting too.

I did learn all your typical infantry tactics in the military (though it was a pretty long time ago), some of them are surprisingly relevant to self defense scenarios IMO.

 

[Boris bush]

If you are moving down a hall and have nowhere to go, turning and running gives the BG a nice target that can not shoot back. They do not care about the legality of shooting someone in the back as they run.

Running towards them makes it harder to hit. Take a kneeling position and light em up. Kneeling is not a bad practice. I have a long hall in my house and if I were engaged while in movement down it being activley shot at. I will take a kneeling position. Running away will not be an option. Moving to one side will not be possible unless I can knock the walls down.

Its like saying one stance is better than another and the boxer stance is the worst while that triangle stance is best. I find shooting over cover when it can not be shot around is best done with the triangle stance. I prefer the boxing stance. I practice both.

I do not understand the mindset of setting yourself up for failure. What if you have to shoot past 25 yards. It can happen. Why practice only at 7 yards and justify it by quoting a stat that 98% of all shoots are 7 yards or less. What if your only time is twice that distance?

I practice deer hunting year round. Shooting woodchucks with your deer hunting weapon is spectacular practice. The next time you level down on a deer it looks so effing huge compared to your off season practice. Practice at twice the distance from stances you never use. It will make it so much easier if you ever need to use your skills.

I can tell you right now from experience on a two way range that it never happens the way you practiced at the time you thought by the person you knew would do it at the distance you trained for. Even when you have prior intel telling you how it will go down and you practice how you know it will happen.

Nothing happens according to plan, never. Start limiting yourself to this method, style or range is a setup for failure. Practice every stance you can at every distance you can. I have seen them ninjas on TV shooting while laying on the ground sideways. I have seen it at schools too, I have been to them, I have trained that way. Why would kneeling be a bad stance to practice or use?

 

[Sam1911]

I hate to feel I'm belaboring the point. If you've made up your mind and don't want to be persuaded, please say so so I don't continue on like a boorish drone.

Assuming that not to be the case, I'll continue thinking out loud...

I think if i drop to a knee as i draw and fire on a single attacker the fight will be over in less than 2 seconds, one way or another, the overwhelming majority of the time.

Do you feel this is different than if you don't drop to a knee? How does taking a knee help you in your view?

Also, if you do it a certain way, your thigh and weak side arm can completely cover all the important parts of your body that you don't want shot- well, except your head.

Take a shot through the thigh and you stand a very good chance of bleeding out in seconds. I'd count the thigh as one of the areas I really don't want to get shot. In any event, counting on my body to stop bullets seems like a horrible idea. If I'm absorbing bullets -- even if they "only" penetrate a little more than through my arm and thigh -- how will that affect my ability to continue to place well-aimed shots? Instead of planning to sacrifice parts of my body to stop bullets, I'd much rather stay up and fluid and moving while shooting as quickly and accurately as I can.

Clearly your arm or thigh wont stop all rounds, but they'll stop some, and they'll greatly reduce the power of any that do penetrate.

While the fight may be over either way in a second or two, if you train to drop, you've accepted the "bullet catching" defense. If you stay in motion, you're accepting the "bullet avoiding" defense. Either of those might not work out for you depending on your reaction times, accuracy, and a number of variables beyond your control -- but I like my odds at avoiding better than my odds of living through a few "barely penetrating" hits that I did absorb.

I'm only 5'7" to begin with, so in a crouch i am a very small target,

Let's look at that. How big is a basketball? 9.38" diameter, Google tells me. No one would consider that to be a difficult target to hit, FAST, multiple times, if it was sitting on the ground in front of you 7-10 yds. away. No matter how small you think you are when tucked down in your position, you're profile when crouched is (doing some rough math) about seven-and-a-half times the area of that basketball. You're an easy -- EASY -- target balled up there like that. And ANY hit from a sidearm is going to severely impact your ability to return fire.

and as Boris has pointed out, it is an extremely stable stance

Right, but as I pointed out, what we're doing in a defensive shooting situation doesn't require anything like a "stable" stance. You aren't going for small groups and your target is CLOSE. Most defensive shootings are "bad breath" close. How much steadying are you planning to do before you send rounds in the bad guy's direction. Heck, we often practice "firing from retention" -- meaning firing as soon in the draw stroke as the gun is rotated horizontal. Point shooting, "speed rock," etc. No sights, not bringing the gun up to your eye level -- heck, not even seeing the gun. Using your body's position to index the gun well enough to put rounds in the C.O.M. as quickly as possible. That's the common reality of gunfights. Some may take you a little farther from the bad guy and may allow/require a sighted shot. But to worry that your stance would be more stable if you take a knee is getting to be a one-in-a-million kind of situation.

i am a better than average shot to begin with, i think.

Me too. In fact, I believe most shooters are!

If nothing else, because it is not widely practiced, it could give me an element of surprise.

Well, I can agree with that.

That being said, if it's multiple attackers and they're armed, and i think they're more competent than mere gang bangers, it's a damn good bet i'll be shooting and scooting too.

Probably a good plan. I'd rather not bother to assess their skill levels before I execute a strategy, though. If I've got to shoot, I'm going to employ the best tactics I know, regardless of whether it's one guy with a bat or six with guns.

IMHO.

 

[Sam1911]

If you are moving down a hall and have nowhere to go, turning and running gives the BG a nice target that can not shoot back. They do not care about the legality of shooting someone in the back as they run.

Agree wholeheartedly! Turning and running would be suicidal and even worse than dropping to a stationary position. The best plan is to move forward (close the distance) and toward the adversary's strong side. It is harder for him to correct in that direction and you should be firing as fast as possible while moving. As one trainer once told me, "hide behind the wall of bullets!" In any event, the closer you are, the more correction it takes the bad guy to stay on target (talking about shot angles).

Running towards them makes it harder to hit. Take a kneeling position and light em up.

Ah ha! Not so! We do practice shots on the move all the time, and I know for an absolute fact that I'll put six shots into the center of a target while moving quickly forward in about 2/3 the time it takes me to drop to a knee, acquire my sight picture, and fire those same shots. I've run both of those drills MANY times.

Kneeling is not a bad practice. I have a long hall in my house and if I were engaged while in movement down it being activley shot at. I will take a kneeling position. Running away will not be an option. Moving to one side will not be possible unless I can knock the walls down.

Depending on where you are in the hall when confronted, moving ahead while firing (close the distance!) or backpedaling while returning fire would both be preferable to dropping to a stationary position -- unless of course there is some cover there to be had. But most houses are filled with "concealment" objects, not cover so that's probably out of the question.

I do not understand the mindset of setting yourself up for failure.

EXACTLY my point!

What if you have to shoot past 25 yards. It can happen. Why practice only at 7 yards and justify it by quoting a stat that 98% of all shoots are 7 yards or less. What if your only time is twice that distance?

I'd never advocate not practicing for longer range shots. That's silly! I'd say it pays to devote most of your precious few hours of practice time each week to what is most likely to happen in the real world -- as you understand the statistics to indicate. But you'd better have some plan for "statistical anomalies" like shots over 25 yards. (You really aught to have a good lawyer, too ... as few shots over 25 yards are going to be easy to defend in court -- but let's not get bogged down in that.)

I practice deer hunting year round. Shooting woodchucks with your deer hunting weapon is spectacular practice. The next time you level down on a deer it looks so effing huge compared to your off season practice. Practice at twice the distance from stances you never use. It will make it so much easier if you ever need to use your skills.

I understand your point, but I think it's misapplied here. You will fight like you train. It isn't sitting in a deer stand waiting to line up a shot. It isn't swinging the fungo bat in baseball -- this bat is heavy, when I get to the plate the bat will be lighter.

You have to set a default reaction in your "wiring." Your default should not be to always use a tactically unsound defensive posture that is really only appropriate in 1% of situations. If you need to steady yourself for a long shot, you've got time to think that through, take a knee, and line up your shot. If you're in the open with someone attacking you from 20 yds or less, you don't need to default to a stationary kneeling position, and you really don't have time to think it over and correct yourself. Train for what you need to do in the direst of emergencies so that you'll do it when you must.

I can tell you right now from experience on a two way range that it never happens the way you practiced

Right, so why allow yourself to focus on a cumbersome task that hurts you 99% of the time? Practice it occasionally, sure. Then you'll know you've got that in your bag of tricks if you someday decide you need it. But you don't want to have that one thing hardwired in as a standard response. The standard response needs to be to MOVE. Forward, backward, sideways, ANYWHERE but "here," rooted to that spot.

Practice every stance you can at every distance you can. I have seen them ninjas on TV shooting while laying on the ground sideways. I have seen it at schools too, I have been to them, I have trained that way. Why would kneeling be a bad stance to practice or use?

Absolutely agree! Practice everything. I've trained with some folks who have practiced shooting from a chair tipped over backwards! Some really "outside the box" thinking, and a good thing to have seen once or twice -- on the off chance you're ever in need of an armed response after having been knocked down.

No one is advocating NOT training in as many positions, stances, and motion patterns as possible. Well, I'm not. I was responding, though to this statement:

but it's what i've always done when i've practiced drawing

That's why we started talking about going stationary/kneeling. And my whole point has been to illustrate that this is really not a very good standard response. MOVING is good. Moving to cover, moving to attack, moving to retreat, moving to evade, whatever. But going stationary is almost always a poor choice of responses.

 

[Boris bush]

Looks like we agree.

While I did not see it happen and I will leave exact details out. I know of one instance kneeling was used in a real shoot at close range in a hall. It was not in a civil setting. Someone was missed and entered a hall between friendlies. The nearest guy took a knee and fired upwards. When the projectiles exited, they did not his his team mates.

We are taught this and it worked.

I believe we agree 100% and your last post was full of spectacular information! Thankyou sir!!

 

[Sam1911]

The nearest guy took a knee and fired upwards. When the projectiles exited, they did not his his team mates.

That is a GREAT lesson, and tremendous quick thinking by that shooter!

 

[valorius]

Do you feel this is different than if you don't drop to a knee? How does taking a knee help you in your view?

I'm a 50% smaller target.
My vitals are covered by my arms and thigh.
I can shoot more accurately.

Three pretty good reasons, i think.

Let's look at that. How big is a basketball? 9.38" diameter, Google tells me. No one would consider that to be a difficult target to hit, FAST, multiple times, if it was sitting on the ground in front of you 7-10 yds. away. No matter how small you think you are when tucked down in your position, you're profile when crouched is (doing some rough math) about seven-and-a-half times the area of that basketball. You're an easy -- EASY -- target balled up there like that. And ANY hit from a sidearm is going to severely impact your ability to return fire.

Things are totally different under stress. Under stress, your average criminal element will miss that basket ball with close to all of their shots when rapid firing, i'll bet..even at 3 yards. I'll bet at 7 yards, they miss every shot routinely. (and i bet most cops would do little better)

Most criminals that carry a gun have never even shot the gun they carry before, except maybe to testfire it after they buy it.

I don't think a hit from a side arm is going to affect my ability to return fire much at all, to be honest, unless it hits my CNS. I think that odds are i wont even know if i've even been hit until after the shooting stops. (having been stabbed and been in a couple of seriously traumatic car crashes, i can tell you that i know this first hand. I also know that when my finger got loped off, i didn't feel a thing. Didn't even know it happened until i saw the blood- and that was a moment of total non excitement.)

Many people who've been shot and otherwise massively traumatized have had no idea they were until well after the fact. And you can read about it quite often from survivors of traumatic events.

The body shuts down pain when you're in a moment of extreme stress. Most people, unless they see blood, won't even know they're hit, and at that point, in most cases, it is a matter of survival drive as to whether you go down or not.

There are precious few parts of the body that will stop you RIGHT NOW, and unless im hit in one of those spots, i have no intention whatsoever to stop shooting. I KNOW this (and knowing is half the battle), so the chances of my fight or flight mechanism shutting me down are pretty daggone small IMO.

In any case, the fight will be over long before i see my own blood.

But again, if it seems to me at the exact moment the SHTF that it would be more tactically sound to move, i'll move. But whenever i establish my position to return fire, it will almost definitely be from a low kneeling position.

 

[earplug]

Go shoot some Steel Challenge, USPSA or ICORE, IDPA with your bullseye one hand stance.
Then report back. I'm a lowly C Class in USPSA and not real quick in Steel.
I do compete in Bullseye.
You will have your off hand wishing for a job other then fondling your pocket change.
The Bullseye stance has been proven to be unstable, less accurate and not any faster then a good two handed shot.
Try and find any book by Jeff Cooper, Bill Jordan and other past pistol masters and learn from the past.
Trying to offer a smaller target is stupid when you need to punch holes in the opponent first. Draw, aim, shoot. Then worry about how big of a target you are.
Then read up on some modern Grand Masters.

 

[valorius]

By the way, if we both draw simultaneously, if i'm dropping to a knee the BG's gun is going to swing up right past his target (me) with the momentum of his draw. I expect that in many cases, this will create a very real tactical surprise element.

By the time the opponent corrects, he's already been filled with a couple 9mm Corbon Powrballs, and now he's trying to play catchup against a target half his size.

And if i need to move, i am already very low to the ground and a small target when i begin to do so. As an ex infantryman, the notion of standing tall and exposed during any kind of firefight seems to me to be exceedingly stupid.

Isosceles especially seems to me to be really silly if you don't have body armor on. You're just squaring your COM up in it's largest possible aspect to get pulverized by incoming fire. With body armor on, the stance makes a lot more sense because of it's turret effect, but without armor....yikes.

Honestly, i'd go prone in a heartbeat if i thought it gave me an edge- any edge at all.

You do make some good points 1911 Tuner, which really just illustrates that there is no blanket "right way." It's all about reacting to what you see, and doing so RIGHT NOW.

Trying to offer a smaller target is stupid when you need to punch holes in the opponent first. Draw, aim, shoot. Then worry about how big of a target you are.
Then read up on some modern Grand Masters.

No offense, but i think i'll be sticking to my infantry training in lieu of shooting at paper in sporting games. And in the infantry you are taught to make yourself as small a target as possible, and to use cover and concealment as much as possible. So standing tall like john wayne and blazing away, it's not going to happen if this ex grunt ever gets shot at.

My name aint Basil Plumley.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I don't want to de-rail this discussion, because it does show that a lot of thought has gone into everyone's planning, but I would like to ask a question.

I always advocate movement when under fire as opposed to offering a stationary target, but...if you want to present a smaller target and a more stable shooting platform:

why go to a kneeling position when it is just as fast to get into the roll-over prone as used in USPSA competition.
1. when done correctly, there is no penalty in speed to assume
2. it is without a doubt more stable
3. it surely presents the smallest vertical target
4. the only downside is that it limits your ability to fire over intervening cover

 

[valorius]

Advantages to going to a kneeling position as opposed to a modified weaver, for one is that it is movement- but in the vertical plane. It can cause tactical surprise, because it could be very well unexpected. It also potentially screws up their draw timing, and will very possibly cause them to have to pull their gun back down against the momentum of their upward draw(gangstas do not know how to properly present a weapon by thrusting it out, and lets face it, neither do most CCW folks and a lot of cops) in order to draw a bead back on me. Hopefully, at this point i have done my part, kept my head, and delivered a double tap to their COM, just like i've been taught, and have trained to do for years.

But in all honesty, if i get into a gunfight, i expect that there is a very real chance i will get hit regardless of what i do. I also have zero intention of giving up and just dying because the other guy shot me .2 seconds before i shot him.

Even if i get shot in the heart, i have about 30-40 secs to take him with me. And i am going to try my best to make sure i do.

 

[Boris bush]

I think that was mentioned in post 69

Honestly, i'd go prone in a heartbeat

 

[valorius]

I really think we should all plan for the very real chance that the very first shot in any gunfight we're involved in might very well be US getting shot. Think about it, mentally prepare for it, tell yourself you're going to fight through it.

Many people go down when shot from even superficial wounds because they are so rattled at the fact that they just got shot, not from the pain, or the damage, but because of the mental trauma of being shot.

I think that is something you can train against, to an extent, by simply preparing yourself mentally to accept that you're probably gonna get shot. So if you do....it's nothing you didn't already expect, it is far less likely to rattle you.

 

[Boris bush]

i have about 30-40 secs to take him with me. And i am going to try my best to make sure i do.

I will never forget the day I felt the impact on the soft part of my body armor. The left side of my chest went numb, I got tunnel vison and I dropped down to one knee so I would not fall over because I was getting dizzy (happened alot faster than you just read it, but it was in slow motion and seemed like forever!!). Then I realized I was not dead and snapped out of it.

I am here pitter pattering away. Never giveup for any reason so long as you can still function.......

 

[valorius]

I think that stopping power is 90% mental. I think that in most cases, people stop themselves.