Pistol Marksmanship Objectives

[LightningCrash]

This is an area where I've not found any good information on. It may be that I'm searching for something using the wrong nomenclature.

Frankly, how good is good?

I didn't own or shoot a pistol until February of this year. I'm currently at a position where I want to improve my pistol shooting skills, but it's difficult to find input on what to set as goals.

I currently shoot an EAA Witness Elite Match 10mm with the Novak-style adjustable rear sights and I'm "minute-of-pie-plate" at 26ft with 15rds, 1-2 seconds between shots. I was shooting at Champion Scorekeeper pistol slowfire targets, the foot-wide single bullseye 25yd ones you get at Walmart for cheap. The indoor range was kind of dark and my front sight would disappear on the black of the target. I'm going to try to fix that with some white or fluorescent yellow fingernail polish. When Henning releases the tritium sights, I'll probably buy some. I like to be able to see.

Obviously marksmanship at 25yds should be an objective, but what should be a goal grouping for 25yds, and at what firing rate?
What should be a goal grouping at 25ft, and at what firing rate?

I'll probably be doing some combination of the following when I'm not shooting 10mm ammo:
-22LR Conversion Kit
-"Shooting the Pencil"
-Laserlyte LT-1 trainer across the house

Anything else I should be trying?
Do I need snap caps for dry fire on the Witness?

I can tell I'm jerking the trigger and anticipating recoil, I'm hoping the things I'm doing will remedy that.

ETA: Weaver stance, grip similar to the following:
http://www.corneredcat.com/Images4/sm_ThumbsForward.jpg
I also "L" my hand and really get high up on the Witness.
I flinch and don't see the muzzle flash, but I'm trying to work on that.
(Just trying to cover some of the obvious stuff)

 

[cactusgeorge]

shooting

Lighting,
Just one question first...then I will know how to proceed.... Is your long term goal Bullseye or precision target shooting or do you want to develope a competent self defense style of shooting. If you wish to PM the answer, it would be helpful..!!

 

[MrBorland]

How good is good? Well, first you have to define the type of shooting you're talking about. Many here think of shooting in the context of SD and/or combat action type shooting. Those standards are much different than target shooting. IMO, it's important to decide what type of shooting you're doing/practicing at any particular time, and practice that, not some hybrid. For example, many shooters blur the difference by placing a silhouette target at 25 yards, blast away, then post their "group", which is usually a pretty lousy example of both combat action (too slow) and target shooting (poor marksmanship).

Anyhow, I practice both types, but I prefer target type shooting, and I suspect that's what you're asking about, so I'll offer my standard reply: From what I've informally seen and gathered, the threshold for good (but not excellent) shooting is a consistent and honest (i.e. no "fliers") 3" at 25 yards. That's a 5-6-round group, shot 2-handed, standing, unsupported, approximately 3-5 seconds between shots*. Revolver shooters ought to be able to do this shooting double action. "Very good" to "excellent" shooting would be consistent and honest 2.5" to 2" groups @ 25 yards, respectively. If you can shoot sub-2" 25 yard groups consistently, you are firmly into the "excellent" category, IMO. I suspect that most competitive bullseye shooters would fall into this latter category, and very few of the people you'll see at the range would even fall into the first category.


*that's a guess. The point is that the shots are deliberate and aimed, not rushed in any way.

 

[Justin]

It completely depends on how you want to define "good."

The best way to figure out where your skills lie is to attend local pistol matches.

Every form of competitive shooting offers some standard method for measuring your abilities.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Do I need snap caps for dry fire on the Witness?

I would use them. I broke the firing pin on a gun that was supposed to be safe to dry-fire, because I didn't use snap caps.

 

[LightningCrash]

I'm practicing for self-defense/CCW purposes.

A friend of mine has been trying to convince me to compete in his club's pseudo-bullseye comp, but I'd rather put my efforts into SD practice at the moment.

A friend gave me some Rob Pincus pistol training video, but it's just methodology, no real coverage of marksmanship. Love the video, though.

 

[MrBorland]

IMO, then, you just need enough marksmanship to get your shots into the COM, say, on a standard IDPA target at 7-10 yards. Beyond that, how "good" you are is a matter of how quickly and consistently you can do that. Don't worry about "fast" at first. Be slow and smooth. Fast & good will come on it's own. Just my $0.02.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

I do my shoots at 5 and 7 yards. Ever trying to be quicker each time while being consistent with center mass. I can hit paper at 30 yards but it's tiny target faraway.

I vary my target paper from police shadow of a bad guy on down to small squirrels that look really small at 7 yards.

Will be going into small drills as such might be availible soon this year but we will see.

 

[[email protected]]

This ought to be a good incentive. 10 shots 25 yds. one hand unsuported.
slow fire. When you start producing targets like this, your there.

 

[LightningCrash]

Thanks for the input, guys.
I'll try to round up some IDPA targets before my next range session.

For dry firing:
Are the A-ZOOM snap caps sufficient in quality for this purpose?
Would "shooting the pencil" be ok without a snap cap?

 

[GRIZ22]

Don't worry about speed. That will come over time. A realistic gioal might be around 2" at 10 yards for starters. Fire one round and lower the gun. Go slow. You need to learn how to repeat the shot you just took. Once you got to this goal, move the target to 15 yard etc etc. Use a bullseye target. It gives you much better reference for your sights than an IDPA target. you can make suitable targets by taking a coffee can, Tupperware lid or whatever laying it on a plain sheet of paper, and sparying it with flat black spary paint. Gives you a white bull for easy reference and you can make 500 of them for maybe $10.

 

[MrBorland]

Are the A-ZOOM snap caps sufficient in quality for this purpose?

I've used A-Zooms and found them to be pretty durable.

Grizz22 makes a number of good points, that bear repeating: First, that while you might be interested combat action type shooting, accuracy/target work would help that. Second, when shooting for accuracy, use an appropriate bullseye target and take your time, and third, don't start at 25 yards.

I thought his other point was worth commenting and expanding on, too, namely that first shot. Learning to repeat it in a target setting is valuable, but it's important in a combat action type setting as well. What seems tough for most (it is for me, at least) is getting that first shot on target quickly and accurately, so it's worth putting lots of time into. Blazing away at a target when the gun's already aimed is relatively easy - much harder is getting the gun there and getting that first CoM shot off quickly. Tougher yet is drawing from the holster to first shot. Fortunately, a LOT of this practice can be done at home for free via dry fire. IMO, about 80% of what you need to practice can be done with dry fire, and most of the rest can be done with .22LR. Google "dry fire drills" and you'll find lots of stuff to keep you going at home.

 

[REAPER4206969]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2Zioo5ixw4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkWm4c99SqU

 

[kludge]

NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program is self paced and can guide you along in several disciplines.

 

[Damon555]

25 yards is a long way to shoot a pistol. Just remember that this is the internet, what people say they can do and what they can actually do are almost always 2 different things.

2" groups at 25 yards is attainable.....but lets be realistic. The average shooter isn't going to do that very often. I love the 10mm but that cannon isn't going to be the most accurate. If you get a .22lr conversion kit for it that might help. But shooting matches with a 10 isn't going to be easy or cheap.

The best way to become good is practice. And get some good instruction. Practice alone won't help anything if you're just practicing bad habits. Slow and steady is the objective at first. The fun part is all the shooting!

 

[moooose102]

it also depends on what you are going to shoot. if you are looking to hunt with your handgun, you will need to be a better shot than if the only intention you have is self defense at less than 20 feet. a center of mass at 10 feet is pretty easy for most people, but a boiler room shot on a deer at 50 yards (or more) is a lot more difficult. and then, there is the whole competition arena. of which i will never qualify for. of course, i really dont have much interest in it either. imo, for persoanl defense, if you can achieve 4" cirle at 50 feet, your doing what you need to (i am not quite there yet). for hunting, you need to be able to hit 75%of your shots within the center 1/2 of a paper plate (and the rest inside the plate) at the distance you are going to shoot at. for cometition, you need to be able to shoot 10 asprins sideways at 200 yards, with 12 shots, in the wind, with open sights, and looking into the sun, with no wind guage, and be able to say how far the dust will drift before it disapates. lol.

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

This is a 50 yard Bullseye Slow Fire Target (10shot string)

I have more than one of these targets with mid 90's scores. Standing. One hand, Iron sights.

A score of 95% is the low end of Master. Anyone that scores above that is normally quite happy.

As an Expert indoor Bullseye shooter banging on the door of Master, I am a Sharpshooter for Outdoor Bullseye with Expert in my sights. I occasionally win my entry fee back at a match (in class), but I bet I'm not even in the top 500 on the west coast yet I out shoot most people I know. Am I good? There are many people better than me. -And you certainly won't see me shooting at Camp Perry any time soon.

How good is good? Choose a discipline and research the national championship results. Anyone in the top 25% should be regarded as a very very good shooter.

-Steve

 

[Mike OTDP]

Damon555, 25 yards is a SHORT distance. 50 yards is a better test - and 50 meters better yet.

It's a mental thing. If you are confident in your ability to get hits at 50 yards, anything less is pathetically easy.

 

[Judah Ben-Hur]

Shooting 25 yards for someone new is way too far. Basically, you will only be making noise at the target. They won't learn anything because there will be minimal hits on the paper to see what your doing wrong. Get close to the target and be repetitive. Go slow and be deliberate. Learn from others and your own mistakes. You will be calling your shots from the front sight when you screw up. Everybody does it, some more than others. The key is to learn from every shot, with the expense of ammo nowadays, make every one count. When you get one ragged hole or something close then its time to move a few paces back and do it all over again. You will not only get better, but you will know what your gun likes. When you don't shoot enough, you may have to move in to get back in the groove. Practice makes perfect!

I've got a long way to go.

 

[kludge]

I can't believe I missed this in the OP...

Starting out with a 10mm is asking for trouble, especially if you haven't had any marksmanship training.

We start new handgun shooters at 15ft.

Practice with a .22 at 50ft until everything is in the black...

Until you are shooting 2" groups at 50ft, you're wasting money trying to shoot at 25 or 50 yards.

Now you can try your 10mm... start at 15 feet, when you can keep everything on a 4" paper plate go to 25 feet, then 50 ft, etc.

If your groups get erratic, slow down, reduce the distance, focus on the fundamentals, breath control, sight picture, press trigger, follow through, and go back to the .22 if you have to.

My $0.02

 

[GRIZ22]

it also depends on what you are going to shoot. if you are looking to hunt with your handgun, you will need to be a better shot than if the only intention you have is self defense at less than 20 feet. a center of mass at 10 feet is pretty easy for most people

This is the wrong philosphy. Learning to shoot accurately at longer disttances will make you more accurate at closer ranges also. If your best is 8" at 10 yards that equates to 40" at 50 yds. 8" at 50 yds (not an unreasonable goal with any medium to large frame handgun) works out to 1.6" at 10 yds.

 

[DaveBeal]

I'd second the suggestion for the NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program. It provides objective standards against which to measure your progress. The early stages are easy, but it gets more interesting. I found the Distinguished Expert level of Bullseye Pistol to be fairly challenging. Go to this web page and click on Pistol or Bullseye Pistol on the left.

 

[David E]

I am amused by some postings that show an exceptional target and stating, "when you can do this, you're good!"

No, when someone can do that, they're very, very good.

I thought the OP was basically asking where the line between "good" and "average" was. He has since defined his shooting as SD oriented, so totally different dynamics apply. What works great one handed slow-fire @ 25 or 50 yds isn't the way to go for SD purposes.

First off, buy a shot timer and keep records.

Secondly, Take a class.

At various distances, see how fast you can shoot 6 shots while keeping them all on a pie plate (or the 8" circle of the IDPA target) If you start pulling them out, slow down a bit until you figure out what you're doing.

A shot timer is key, as it will give you specific, detailed feedback that you cannot get any other way. This will help you self-diagnose, as well.

To answer the "how good is good" question, for SD purposes, when you can draw and fire 6 shots into the 8" IDPA circle at 5 yds in 2.5 seconds, you've crossed the line between "average" and "good."

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

What should be a goal grouping at 25ft, and at what firing rate?

First at 15ft, your group of a full magazine should be one ragged hole in the target. Slow fire. Master consistant trigger and sight alignment with slow fire. As you get better increase the rate of fire. Starting out fast will get you no where. Bullseye shooting, SF is 10 rounds in 10 minutes. That is an extreme, Start out with 10 rounds in five minutes. That gives you one shot per 30 seconds plus a reload. Reach that goal of the ragged hole then cut your time by one minute. Do it again until you can attain that ragged hole in 2 1/2 minutes. NO, Not 2.5 seconds.

what should be a goal grouping for 25yds, and at what firing rate?

Once you've got your 15ft and 25ft groups in a nice cluster, then start working at 25yds.

-22LR Conversion Kit

Don't bother. Buy a low end target rimfire gun to practice with. Buckmark, MKII, Trailside, Trapper.. Something like that.

I can tell I'm jerking the trigger and anticipating recoil,

See the last sentence... you're jerking because of anticipating excesive recoil. You need to get past this by working up from a rimfire gun, then maybe a .38spl, or 9mm, then you'll be able to shoot the 10mm without jerking. -Maybe.

To answer another post, I don't see anything in the original post about SD shooting. He did ask, 'How good is good?'. Depending on discipline, good has a different standard. Take someone that shoots IDPA or IPSC only and have them shoot Bullseye, Probably not something to write home about. Take a BE shooter and have them shoot IDPA, same. There are some shooters that practice and compete in both. Those that I have met that shoot both usually prefer one over the other and excell in that format.

Don't discount the BE shooter that can put 10 shots in the 9 and 10 ring at 25yds in rapid fire. (5rnds in ten seconds with a 45acp one handed inside 2 1/2")

And certainly don't discount the shooter that can put 6 shots into the 8" IDPA circle at 5 yds in 2.5 seconds.

Taking a class is not a bad suggestion, but better yet, competing, maybe not with that 10mm, but something a bit smaller, would be much more benificial. Falling plates, Pin tops, Duello, Rimfire Bullseye. I would never suggest a new shooter just jump right in to IDPA or IPSC. There's a bunch of things to think about, when what a new shooter needs to learn is trigger control and sight alignment at a rate much slower than the demands of defensive shooting on the move. Speed comes with consistancy. Consistancy does not come with speed.


-Steve

 

[VegasOPM]

My take on the original question is that your objectives will change as you improve. Improvement comes with practice and competition. Mix up your practicing- find local IDPA, USPSA, Bullseye, Action Pistol clubs.
Is a person that can put 6 shots into 2" at 25 yds a better shot than someone that can hit 6- 8" steel plates set at 10 yds in under 4 seconds? How about someone that draw from concealment and make a head shot at 10 yds in under 2 seconds?... 1.5 seconds?

My objectives get modified slightly after every match or practice session. Right now it is to shoot an entire International IPSC match while making 90% of the available points as fast as I can.