Why stick the first shell in the ejection port?

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RyanM

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Seems like, if you're using a shotgun defensively, loading the first round that way needlessly complicates the manual of arms and could also magnify operator error under stress, for almost no benefit at all.

Speed? Pull slide back, grab shell, put in ejection port, push slide forward. Versus grab shell, put in magazine, pull slide back, push slide forward. Same number of steps, and only one movement changes. That saves a maximum of what, a quarter second? Less? I honestly can't see any difference in time at all, without using a camera and a stopwatch. The only way you get any noticable speed increase is if you start out with the gun open, which doesn't seem like the best way of storing a defensive gun to me, nor is it a good condition to carry a gun in if you think you may need it in a hurry.

Then the drawbacks. There's a lot more that can go wrong. If you lose track of rounds and the gun's not empty, stuffing one in the ejection port will tie up the gun until you shake the round out. Oops. Putting one in the magazine then racking the slide, worst case you lose only ammo, not time as well.

Sure, you could look in the ejection port after ejecting what you think is your last round, but then you totally negate any possible speed benefit you might've had, and you have to take your eyes off your target, and it doesn't work in the dark. Yes, there's a distinct noise when the magazine releases a round onto the elevator. Do you really want to count on being able to hear that after firing 6, 8, 9, or more shots indoors?

And what if you accidentally end up holding the shell backwards? Loaded into the ejection port, a closed elevator gun will refuse to feed, and then you need to clear the jam. An open elevator gun will allow the shell to dangle partway out the bottom, and is even harder to clear. But if you load a shell backwards into the magazine, the gun just goes "ptooey!" and spits it back out at you. Also, since your thumb is touching the bottom/top of the round, it'd be slightly easier to notice, vs. only touching the side, as when putting one in the ejection port.

Only loading into the tube also simplifies the manual of arms a fair amount. The standard manual of arms gives you "pull slide back, insert shell a different way, push slide forward," for the first step of an empty gun reload. That's three movements which are significantly different from operating the gun normally, since you should never be leaving the slide back any other time (and you should be topping off every chance you get, to keep it from going dry in the first place). One in the tube then rack gives you "insert shell the normal way, press slide release, rack slide the normal way." Only one "new" movement to learn instead of three, and it's something you should be doing every time you handle the gun, anyway!

Really, loading one in the ejection port should only be if you use a shotgun for games, and are required by range rules to keep the action open. Those are the only conditions under which it makes sense. And even then, if you prefer to run the gun the same way everywhere, it only takes 1 extra second (if that) to load the first round from the magazine.
 
I understand your logic, but I don't totaly agree. How about load one shoot one? Line two guys up on a couple of plate racks. Have one of them use the ejection port, and the other use the magazine in the manner you describe. Given experienced shotgunners, I can almost guarantee which will clear the racks first.

I will be very interested in the responses. This should be fun.
 
But if you load a shell backwards into the magazine, the gun just goes "ptooey!" and spits it back out at you.

My mileage differs...

lpl/nc
 
When you run the gun dry the forend will already be in the back position, you dont have to close it and then pull it back again.

You just drop one in the port and move the forend forward and your back in business. It's the fastest way to get back up and running with a loaded gun after running dry.

Better yet, do everything you can to keep from running dry.

Jeff

Jeff
 
While loading, one in the chamber is useful in case you have to "keep going" so to speak. Ive seen guys load shells backwards into the tube before while scared and such. They shove it with such force while in that state, it will go in and jam everything up. Matters not how the shell is inserted, one can mess it up anyway they go.

The scatter gun isnt easy to use while scared or injured. Too nervous, you can "underrack it". One in the hole allows for at least one round of usable defense.

+1 Jeff Mull, Never run the gun dry is the easiest manner.
 
Cowboys shooters using Winchester 1897 or clones load and shoot one at a time by dumping the shell into the open chamber and, believe me, they are fast. How about 4 shots in under 2.6 seconds?

Take a look at this website and you'll find video clips showing how this is done:
http://www.jspublications.net/records/records.html

This method takes a little practice, but surprisingly little.

That's what I'm talkin' about!!!

streakr
 
I like the option of loading through the ejection port when waterfowl hunting. especially on semi-autos. It makes for a quick follow up shot on those fast swimming wounded ducks at the edge of, or approaching your maximum effective range. :)
 
I don't keep a loaded gun in the house for various reasons. My 870 is empty, slide back with the side saddle loaded. The shell at the rear of the side saddle is positioned brass up and goes into the ejection port first and the action is closed. The rest of the shells are brass down and go into the magazine.

This allows me an immediate shot if needed and is faster than loading the magazine and racking the action. I practice loading and firing the gun during my range sessions.
 
well, if you're storing it unloaded (which is sooooo much safer), and it wasn't in a safe/case, then leaving it with the breech open is how it should be, then it would be faster to toss a round into the port, close the breech, safety off and fire, than to close it, load mag, pump, then fire.
 
But if you load a shell backwards into the magazine, the gun just goes "ptooey!" and spits it back out at you.

Having done this once during a course, I agree with Lee. The gun did not just go ptooey, but locked up decently well and it took some doing to get running again.

I also don't count the steps the same way as you do, since for me racking the slide has become somewhat automatic.

Figuring a stressed situation, I lose count of rounds fired. At some point I pull the trigger and the gun goes click. Slide is already being moved back, because that is what I do every time after I pull the trigger. Support hand moves to sidesaddle, loads shell into ejection port, goes back to close action, and I reassess the situation.

If I did things your way, I'd have the gun go click, I'd rack the slide to open the action since that is what I always do, and then I'd have to shut the action, load a shell, either pull the trigger or hit the action release, and pump the gun to get a shell in the chamber.

If I had trained a different way, and when the gun went click I loaded the magazine before opening the action, I might be faster that way, but I didn't, and I'm not.
 
Anoyher point. If you reloading a gun in a hurry the most important shell is the first one. Get that one in and chambered in the quickest manner possible.....then you can take a little more time with the others.
 
Interesting that other peoples' guns don't seem to spit out backwards shells. The only way I can get one to stay in is by very carefully positioning the shell to the side a bit, so that it's secure against the shell stop. And it's pretty sensitive to alignment. If it's not absolutely perfect, it pops right back out after a second. The only shells that stick in there really well are all brass ones. And those hurt to load backwards!

Anyway, I've tried timing myself, and I really don't see any practical difference in speed. Cowboy shooting is nice to watch, but isn't exactly practical. The really fast guys can shoot an SA revolver slip-pistol style very quickly, with acceptable combat accuracy. Does that mean that SA revolvers and slip pistol make DA revos and semi-autos obsolete?

Figuring a stressed situation, I lose count of rounds fired. At some point I pull the trigger and the gun goes click. Slide is already being moved back, because that is what I do every time after I pull the trigger. Support hand moves to sidesaddle, loads shell into ejection port, goes back to close action, and I reassess the situation.

That's kind of part of my point. You automatically move the slide after pulling the trigger. Do you mentally pause after every shot, while the action is open, and go "hm, it went bang that time, so push it forward"?

Personally, I try to rack the slide as hard and fast as I can, which usually means the action's already closed by the time I realize it went click instead of bang. At that point, there's no benefit to ejection port vs. mag.

To do it the way you describe, I'd need to consciously slow down every shot, so that the action's open long enough for my brain to catch up. And slowing down every shot just so that loading the first shot into an empty gun is faster, just doesn't make sense. It's either that or think faster, but I like thinking slowly. I make fewer stupid mistakes that way.
 
Maybe I've just shot Browning A-5's too long, but I almost always throw one in the open port and stuff one in the mag at the same time.

That closes the bolt automatically on an A-5, and you have two shots in the gun with one movement.

But pumps are different, so I don't know which would be faster for me.

rcmodel
 
Do you mentally pause after every shot, while the action is open, and go "hm, it went bang that time, so push it forward"?

To do it the way you describe, I'd need to consciously slow down every shot,

I don't know how the brain works at that level, but for me it isn't something I have to think about. When the gun goes click instead of boom, that is immediately obvious to my ears, shoulder, brain, whatever. It is more of a reaction than a planned action to get the next shell into the chamber, and the fastest way for me to do it is to go through the ejection port.

I've been doing it like this since probably my first dove hunt (possibly duck, I can't remember which I did first) 20+ years ago. I will say it is a lot easier to count 3 shots when hunting, so normally the gun doesn't go click then, but when I know it is empty I leave the action open and get the next shell into play. For me, that way is much faster. If your times are the same it sounds like your way works for you.
 
Interesting discussion...

Since I've never been in a critical situation where it mattered, I'll just toss this out off the top of my head...

First thing that came to mind is what the situation is that requires me to be ready or load the weapon so fast?

If I were going to use my 870 as a primary defensive gun I would probably put four in the magazine on a closed breech and either use a carrier for additional shells (how many do they hold? 5 or 6?) or have them loose in a pocket. As soon as I detect a 'threat' I rack the slide and pop a round in the magazine if necessary. This, it seems to me anyway, is the fastest way to put the weapon into action against a threat. The thought of having to 'hit' the open action (and no I don't like to store a weapon with the action open) with a round and THEN shove additional rounds into the magazine is not only counter-intuitive (basically it seems ass-backwards to me...) but slow.

Again-this is all conjecture on my part so go easy...

If it were a problem with leaving shells in the magazine of a shotgun (I don't see why it is inherently more dangerous than leaving any other primary defensive weapon loaded) then I would go to a weapon that is easier and faster to get ready like a revolver, pistol with magazines, or rifle with either magazines or stripper clips. If warranted this could buy me time if the weapon I really needed were the shotgun.

Again, this is not based on any direct experience, just my own thoughts. But I would say that I agree with RyanM regarding the complication of the manual of arms for a *defensive* shotgun.

As for competition and hunting, I've never been in those situations (with a shotgun anyway), where I needed to reload that fast. Also, competition shooting is dedicated to speed and not indicative of what your typical shooter will attain with a monthly trip to the local range. In other words, it really don't apply here for most of us as far as I can tell.
 
Since I've never been in a critical situation where it mattered, I'll just toss this out off the top of my head...

Well, it's really more for if you've shot all your ammo, not for loading it the first time. Like if Mongol hoards are invading my house, or something.

The "conventional" technique seems to be that if you know you just fired your last shot (or if you get a click instead of a bang), pop the action open, drop a shell in the ejection port, shut it, then load the tube. Problem is, if you knew wrong and there was still a round left (or if the click was a dud instead of an empty chamber, and there's still a round in the tube), you've just tied up the gun for a second.

The way I'm proposing is to load the first round in the tube, rack the slide, then finish loading. I'll admit I'm just a newbie to shotgunning, but that also means that I have the "benefit" of not having years of muscle memory, and being able to see what works best when you're equally inept at all techniques. Always loading rounds into the tube and always racking the slide completely means less having to make decisions, which, under stress, is a Very Good Thing.
 
first one in the ejection port

When starting with an empty gun, hopefully before the fecal matter hits the rotary osilator;

situation one;
1. release the action
2. Open bolt
3. drop round in ejection port
4. close bolt
ready for action

situation two
1. insert round in magazine
2. release the action
3. open bolt
4. close bolt
ready for action

When looking at this on paper, its seems like an academic exercise but in practice placing a round in the ejection port and closing the action means I only have to place one round in the magazine and have two shoots avalable while the second situation would require closing the action, two rounds in the mag and then rack the slide to ready the weapon for action.

Most pump shotguns will not allow a mag top off while the action is open sooo, while the action is open why not just drop a shell in there, close the action and make it immediately ready with one shot, then stuff shells in the mag. Instead of closing the action, stuffing shells in the mag, hitting the slide release and then racking the slide.

You should do what you are comfortable with but for me I'm going to use that ejection port when I need it. If you store your home defense weapon completely unloaded and will always have plenty of time to load your weapon before trouble starts this is an exercise in futility because you will always be able to load your weapon and rack the slide without missed steps or loading a round backwards.

Remember, if you go to a gun fight......take a gun!!!

and there is no such thing as a "politically correct" gun fight.

Griz
 
Huh?

Not exactly following you there Griz...(edit: OK-you said start with an empty gun...)

I would not rely on a shot gun if I didn't have enough time to get it ready...

So this is how I start or I grab my pistol or a mag fed rifle...

I've got four in the magazine...

Rack slide...

I now have four rounds available, including one in the chamber with the weapon cocked...


Shove one in the magazine on the way down the stairs and that makes five...

Ryan, I see what your talking about as far as not running dry. That's one reason I put a mag extension on my 870. It's hard for me to imagine getting to that point with eight rounds available. I still think that I'd resort to keeping the magazine full.

End result: I'll give it a try!
 
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rcmodel,

Your doing it the hard way.

With A5's made after 1953 you can put the first shell in the mag tube with an open bolt and the gun will load it for you.

This was called the "speed load" feature and it was made possible by the 2 piece lifter designed by Val Browning while he was working on the Browning 2 shot automatic.

Jeff
 
What I was told and what I believe to be true is that it takes less fine motor skill to dump one in the port than it does to put one in the mag. In a situation where your adrenaline just dumped, the fine motor skills are immediately gone.
 
First speaking tactically, and not speed, for the most part:

1. Reloads are weak hand only.
2. Load the port from under the shotgun unless you rotate the SG 90 degrees counter clockwise. In that case, drop them in from "above".
3. #'s 1 and 2 being the case, it's MUCH easier (and almost guaranteed, faster getting back into the game) to load the port and chamber the round weak hand vs. loading the mag tube weak hand.
 
With an empty gun I'm going to load two/shoot one, then go into load one/shoot one mode after that- it's easier for me to do all my loading into the magazine. That's given time to run the shotgun, of course. With no time to run the shotgun, it's time to transition to the sidearm...

Get training, then practice what you learned that worked for you.

lpl/nc
 
Browning Auto-5's and Golds have an advantage. We just keep stuffing shells in the bottom and they keep loading into the chamber first then into the magazine. :D Otherwise for any other gun I put one inthe side, punch the button on the side and load as usual. If it's a pump, I load from the side, slide forward and then load as many as it'll hold into the mag. I'm pretty used to loading under stress from hunting (trying to get that last follow up shot) or under the timer in an action game of some kind.
 
How else am I supposed to load my Youth Single Shot 20 ga?

I am open to suggestions as I will always be learning...still I only gots one "port" and the shell won't go anywhere else, and only go into that area, in one direction...
 
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