WHY The 147?

[CZF]

People ask me what bullet they should put in their new CZs.
Some want to know if the 147 is good for defensive ammo.

CZF members that i have a lot of respect for. They carry it in
Cee-Zeds when others are very keen on 124 grain loads.

I also see that the 147 gr. gets mentioned here.

How many of you carry it, and for what reason(s) over the
115, 135 and 124 gr. loads?? I tend to look at them as somewhat
Old Technology. Lates 80s, after the Miami Disaster.

Maybe i'm wrong and they work far better nowdays. I'm curious
as to what you people have to say. I'm an oddball, as i carry
a load that is very street proven, but not proven in the states.



CZ Pistols.

"FEEL THE STEEL!"

 

[Zak Smith]

Well, if you're talking about old 147's, then they are "old technology." New ones aren't.

From this thread: CZ-75 and Speer Gold Dot 147gr:

As for 147gr in 9mm being a poor choice, it's actually about equal to the 124gr +P in FBI protocol penetration/expansion tests.

From the calibers-l list:

After cloth in gel:

124/6 GD 16/.54
124/9 +P GD 20/.53
147/9 GD 18/.55

Also, you can look on AmmoLab.com (
http://www.ammolab.com/Test Results.htm ) for pictures of similar tests.

Or, you can look at
my compilation of FBI data . In particular, if you "grade" the loads based on the average penetration * expansion (ie, a value proportional to wound volume) for both bare and clothed gelation, two of the top four 9mm rounds are 147gr; the other two are 124gr.

Yes, the old 147gr designs had expansion problems, but the new generations of 147gr bullets expand fine. The Gold Dot is no exception.

If a .45ACP JHP can be designed to expand when fired at 850 fps (e.g. the HydraShok, which will expand to about 0.66 - 0.71"), what makes you think a 147gr 9mm JHP can't be designed to expand properly at 950 - 1050 fps?

A 147gr 9mm has approximately the same sectional density as 230gr .45.

-z

 

[DonGlock26]

The FBI created several tests for handgun bullet performance. The 147gr performed well in the tests for penetration. Modern 147gr hollowpoints such as the Speer Golddot and Winchester RangerT(used by LAPD&LASO) perform well in tests and actual use. The 147gr JHP's were critizied by some gunrag writers and the echos of that can still be heard. But, the naysayers are short on facts. I believe the 147gr JHP is just as good as the 124/127 JHP with an edge in penetration.

Don

 

[Zak Smith]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that 124gr+P's expand better after going through steel metal and glass (ie, car bodies) than the 147's. I cannot find the reference right now, however. It might have been FirearmsTactical.com ?

-z

 

[Boats]

When I had a 9mm around, I liked 147gr because it was that caliber's attempt to approximate the 230gr .45ACP, a mass/momentum thumper instead of relying on speed.

I have never shot a human with a handgun, but 147 JHP did okay on the R. Lee Ermey watermelon death test.

 

[BigG]

This is a pretty good example of what Elmer Keith said about 50 years ago based on his exhaustive shooting of game animals with handguns.

The heavier the better for a given caliber is the gist of it. IIRC he said a 200+ gr 44 or 45 bullet had about twice the effect of a 9mm despite the difference speed while paper ballistics would indicate they should have equal effects given muzzle energy figures.

 

[sonoranjack]

I choose the 147 gr in 9mm. Because at ammolab.com the 147 gr gives the deepest penetration.

 

[Blueduck]

I like the 147 grain Ranger T load because according to most test it gives the same or better results (penetration,expansion, wound channel, etc )as the 127 grain +P+ load and does it with less stress to the gun, less recoil, and better accuracy in everything I've tried it in. Being used by several major departments including LAPD means it is being used in shootings and while maybe not the best, if it was the worst I assume we would have heard something about it.

To me the real question is why would anyone want a 124+P or 127 +P+

 

[Sean Smith]

Aside from it being a famously effective load, the main nice thing I personally saw when shooting the Winchester 127gr +P+ was that it was really accurate and had low flash. Hot too, but not outrageously so.

 

[BigG]

The only downside to using the heavier than standard bullet is the point of impact tends to be different than the std load, in 9mm 113 grain. Most fixed sighted guns are regulated for the 115 gr. You will shoot maybe 5" higher at 50 feet with a 147 grain in my subjective testing.

 

[Mike Irwin]

When they first started hitting the streets, the original 147-gr. loads were DOGS. That was in the mid to late 1980s. Expansion was iffy at the best of times, and penetration was often through and through.

It had a LOT in common, effectiveness wise, with the old 158-gr. LRN police loads for .38 Spl.

Now days, though, advances in bullet design have made the 147 gr. 9mms reliable both in expansion and penetration.

 

[WonderNine]

To me the real question is why would anyone want a 124+P or 127 +P+

Lugers were designed to shoot 124gr. ammo. 124gr. NATO spec ammo is cheap.

I shoot either 124 gr. Winchester NATO or Winchester Ranger T +P+ 127 gr. exclusively through my 9mms. It is the most reliable ammo I have ever used.

And both are extremely accurate. Why would you want 147gr.?

 

[bpisler]

IF i had to use a 147gr 9mm i would go with the golden sabre,gold dot and silvertip in that order.I prefer the 124gr +P golden sabre because that what works best for me.

 

[chaim]

I usually prefer 123/124 gr out of a 9mm. I did buy a box of 135gr HydroShoks inadvertently once (I may use them, I haven't decided yet).

The reason is that I like to work with the strengths of my caliber.

For the 9mm that is a small bullet at very high velocities. I go up to 124gr to get more penatration than 115s but I still want to remain light enough to keep the velocity advantage.

In .45acp I go the opposite route. The advantage there is a large slow moving bullet to get your power. I don't go lower than 185gr because I want to keep the mass up.

A 9mm will never be a .45acp, it is just too small with any bullet and its power is derived from speed. A .45acp will never be a 9mm, it is simply made to get its power from mass.

I don't get people who try to go w/ heavy 9mms or fast .45s. You lose the biggest advantages of those calibers when you do that. If light bullets (9mm) or slow bullets (.45acp) bother you, instead of compromising within the caliber maybe you should use a compromise caliber. I think .40S&W is a vast improvement over the light .45s and heavy 9mms if you want to go this direction.