Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by bg226, Apr 27, 2007.
I've also found it to be the most accurate factory load in S&W and Taurus 9mms.
The early ones didn't expand well but using any handgun to stop someone is an iffy proposition. There is no magic bullet and shot placement can easily make up for a not as good as bullet.
Don't use them in a 9mm carbine for social purposes. To my experience the velocity is about the same in the G26 as it is in the MP5. In a 16' barrel carbine the powder gets all burned up and barrel friction actually slows the bullet down to about 900 fps.
cut from http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
Matix: S&W M3000 12 gauge shotgun (1 round #6 shot fired).
Platt: Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington carbine (at least 42 rounds fired),
S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver (3 rounds fired),
Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver (3 rounds fired).
McNeill: S&W M19-3 .357 Magnum revolver, 2-inch barrel (6 rounds .38 Special +P fired).
Mireles: Remington M870 12 gauge shotgun (5 rounds 2 3/4 inch 00 buckshot fired),
.357 Magnum revolver (make & model unknown), (6 rounds .38 Special +P fired).
Grogan: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (9 rounds fired).
Dove: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (20 rounds fired).
Risner: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (13-14 rounds fired?),
S&W (model unknown) .38 Special revolver (1 round .38 Special +P fired).
Orrantia: S&W (model unknown) .357 Magnum revolver, 4 inch barrel (12 rounds .38 Special +P fired).
Hanlon: S&W (model unknown) .38 Special revolver, 2-inch barrel (5 rounds .38 Special +P fired).
Manauzzi: Apparently lost possession of his handgun during the vehicle collision and was unable to locate and recover it during the gunfight (0 rounds fired).
Matix’s 1st gunshot wound (right forearm wound E) - Grogan
Matix’s 2nd gunshot wound (right head wound F) - McNeill
Matix’s 3rd gunshot wound (right neck/chest wound B) - McNeill
Matix received his first wound, right forearm wound E, which entered his right forearm just above the wrist. Dr. Anderson believes Grogan fired this shot, which hit Matix from a distance of approximately 25 feet. Grogan’s bullet entered Matix’s forearm on the little finger side, traveled just beneath the ulnar and radius bones, cut the ulnar artery, and exited the forearm on the thumb side.
As Matix pulled back inside after firing at Grogan and Dove, who were positioned behind the Monte Carlo, Matix’s head and upper torso were still rotated to the left when McNeill’s bullet hit him, producing head wound F. The bullet hit Matix just forward of his right ear, below the temple, shattered the cheek bone, hit and fractured the base of the cranium, and entered the right sinus cavity under the eye. This hit bruised the brain (but did not penetrate the cranium or brain) and Dr. Anderson believes it most probably knocked Matix instantly unconscious.
McNeill’s sixth shot hit Matix, causing the third wound, right neck/chest wound B. The bullet entered the right side of his neck after he slumped unconscious momentarily forward against the driver’s side door. It penetrated his neck at a downward angle and severed the blood vessels behind the collar bone, ricocheted off the first rib near the spine and came to rest in the chest cavity. It bruised but did not penetrate the right lung. This wound interrupted the blood supply to his right arm and might have also disrupted the brachial plexus to cause dysfunction of the nerves that supply the arm. Dr. Anderson speculates that Matix’s right arm was probably paralyzed by this injury, either immediately by disruption of the nerves or eventually by total loss of blood circulation to the arm. Dr. Anderson feels this wound would have ultimately been fatal, due to the severed blood vessels. Bleeding from this injury during the next 2-3 minutes caused almost a liter of blood to accumulate in the chest cavity
Platt’s 1st gunshot wound (right upper arm/chest wound B) - Dove
Platt’s 2nd gunshot wound (right thigh wound L) - Dove?
Platt’s 3rd gunshot wound (left foot wound I) - Dove?
Platt’s 4th gunshot wound (back wound K) - Orrantia?
(comment by me:
And now for the reason that 9mm was labled defective.. hardly defective with all the inital rounds hitting his arms or legs)
As Platt crawled through the passenger side window, one of Dove’s 9mm bullets hit his right upper arm, just above the inside crook of the elbow. According to Dr. Anderson, the bullet passed under the bone, through the deltoid, triceps and teres major muscles, and severed the brachial arteries and veins. The bullet exited the inner side of his upper arm near the armpit, penetrated his chest between the fifth and sixth ribs, and passed almost completely through the right lung before stopping. The bullet came to a rest about an inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart.
After Platt crawled out the window and was rolling off the front hood of the Cutlass, Dr. Anderson believes he has hit twice more, most probably by Dove, in the right rear thigh and left foot, (right rear thigh wound L and left foot wound I, respectively).
The bullet that produced the thigh wound entered the inside back surface of the right thigh and exited the outside surface of the leg, and involved only muscle tissue.
The bullet that hit Platt’s left foot entered behind the little toe and passed laterally through the foot from left to right, exiting above the big toe.
Dr. Anderson feels Platt’s fourth gunshot wound (back wound K) might have incurred shortly after he exited the Monte Carlo. The wound is a left to right grazing wound to the back, and may have been inflicted by Orrantia, who was in a position across the street and in front of the Monte Carlo. Orrantia’s bullet might have hit Platt after he got back onto his feet in front of the Cutlass and was turning to his left. The bullet abraded the skin just to the right of the spine in the location of the upper shoulder blade.
Platt’s 5th wound (right forearm wound D) - Risner?/Orrantia?
Platt’s 6th wound (right upper arm/chest wound C) - Risner
Platt’s 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th wounds (right foot wounds E, F; and left foot wounds G and H) - Mireles
Platt received his fifth wound (Platt right forearm wound D) when, after shooting at Risner and Orrantia, he turned to fire at Grogan, Dove and Hanlon (who’d by now joined up with Grogan and Dove after running across the street with Mireles). The bullet, fired by either Risner or Orrantia, hit the outside of Platt’s right forearm (midway between the wrist and the elbow) fractured the radius bone (the bone in the forearm on the thumb side), and exited the forearm.
Platt incurred his sixth wound (Platt right upper arm/chest wound C), which was inflicted by Risner. The bullet entered the back of Platt’s right upper arm (mid arm), passed through the triceps muscle and exited below the armpit. It then entered the muscles in the side of his chest and came to a rest in the soft tissues of the right side back, below the shoulder blade. The bullet did not penetrate the rib cage and the resultant wound was not serious.
Mireles fired the first of five rounds of 00 buckshot from the Remington 870 shotgun he was carrying when he was hit in the forearm at the beginning of the gunfight by one of Platt’s bullets. Dr. Anderson feels this first shot by Mireles caused Platt right foot wounds E and F, and left foot wounds G and H. These wounds did not knock Platt off his feet.
Platt’s 11th wound, scalp wound A - Mireles
Matix’s 4th wound, face wound D - Mireles
Matix’s 5th wound, face/spine wound C - Mireles
Matix’s 6th wound, face/neck wound A - Mireles
Platt’s 12th wound, chest/spine wound J - Mireles
Mireles then drew his .357 Magnum revolver, got to his feet, moved laterally about 15 feet parallel with the street, clear of McNeill’s car, and then began walking directly towards Platt and Matix, who were sitting in Grogan/Dove’s car. Mireles fired six rounds of .38 Special +P from his revolver. Mireles revolver shots 1 and 2 were fired at Platt, shots 3, 4 and 5 at Matix, and shot 6 at Platt. Five of the six bullets hit Platt or Matix.
Mireles first shot at Platt hit the back of the front seat behind Platt’s left shoulder. Dr. Anderson theorizes that the sound of the gunshot would have caused Platt to turn his head to the left to look for the source of the gunfire. Mireles second shot then hit Platt above the outer edge of the right eyebrow (Platt scalp wound A). The weight of the projectile that was recovered from Platt’s scalp was about 19 grains, suggesting that the bullet hit the driver’s side window post and fragmented. After the fragment penetrated the skin it ricocheted off the curvature of the right side of Platt’s forehead, and traveled between the skin and the exterior surface of the skull for a distance of about 2 inches before it stopped above the right temple. The fragment did not penetrate the cranium.
Dr. Anderson postulates that Platt then laid back on the front bench seat of Grogan/Dove’s car, placing his head and shoulders (face side up) in Matix’s lap on the passenger side, in attempt to use the driver’s side door as cover against Mireles’ gunfire. Platt’s movement and positioning trapped Matix upright on the seat with his back against the passenger side door. Mireles third shot hit Matix’s face just below the left cheekbone and adjacent to the left nostril (Matix face wound D). The projectile fragmented in two; the largest embedded in the bone beside the nose, a smaller fragment penetrating the left sinus cavity. According to Dr. Anderson, this wound was not significant, and probably was inflicted as Matix was looking at the approaching Mireles. The size and weight of the two fragments suggests the bullet probably hit the driver’s side window frame before it hit Matix.
Matix then apparently tried to make himself as small a target as possible. He tucked his chin into his chest and pressed his back against the passenger side door to slide his buttocks on the bench seat in attempt to get as low as he could. Dr. Anderson claims this would have accounted for the wound path caused by Mireles’ fourth bullet (Matix face/spine wound C). The bullet hit Matix’s face just outside the lower right edge of the right eye socket, at about seven o-clock. The bullet traveled downward through the facial bones, through the right side of the lower jaw, into the neck, and entered the spinal column between cervical vertebra number 7 (C7) and thoracic vertebra number 1 (T1) where it severed the spinal cord at the base of T1.
Matix’s body would have immediately relaxed, according to Dr. Anderson, causing his head to tilt backwards. His face would have risen upwards by the time Mireles’ fifth bullet hit him in the face (Matix face wound A). The bullet hit Matix’s chin just below the right corner of the mouth, penetrated the jaw bone and into the neck where it came to rest beside the right side of the spinal column at C7. The bullet did not damage the spinal cord.
By this time Mireles had reached the driver’s side door of Grogan/Dove’s car when he fired his sixth and final shot. Mireles extended his gun through the driver’s side window and fired at Platt (Platt chest/spine wound J). The bullet penetrated Platt’s chest just below the left collar bone, traveled through the musculature of the shoulder and neck and stopped in the fifth cervical vertebra (C5), where it bruised the spinal cord. Dr. Anderson observes that the wound path of this bullet through Platt’s body could only have occurred if Platt were lying on his back on the front seat.
Mireles’ sixth and final shot ended the gunfight. Platt and Matix both lay on the front seat of Grogan/Dove’s car. If Matix was not already dead, he would be shortly. Arriving paramedics came to the aid of the FBI agents first and then shifted their attention to Platt and Matix. According to Dr. Anderson, paramedics found no signs of life in Grogan, Dove or Matix and no first aid was attempted. Whereas, Platt appears to have still had a heartbeat because paramedics inserted an airway tube and began administering intravenous fluids. Platt died at the scene without regaining consciousness.
I have done much study and read many varied opinions on the merits of the 9mm and its perceived poor self defense abilities. What I have come to realiase is there is a lot of miss information and just plain stubbornness. Let's compare the lowly 9mm with one of the giants in self defense handguns, the mighty .357 magnum. According to (http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm) the .357 magnum is the best, one shot stopping load in existence. It fact if it has a draw back it is because it is too powerful and for most defensive purposes reduced recoil loads are actually better choices as stated:
"For those uncomfortable with the buck and roar of full-load .357 Magnum rounds, there exist a variety of lower recoil cartridges that are equally well suited to self defensive purposes. Because the .357 Magnum is such an incredible manstopper, little is lost by "downgrading" to more temperate ammunition".
One of the highest recommended reduced power loads is the Remington .357 magnum "Golden Saber 125grain JHP which has close to a 90% one shot rating. This round moves along at 1250 per second and has over 400 foot pounds of energy. Which gentleman just happens to be very close to the data for most 9mm +P rounds in 115/124 grain loads. Sense both bullets are as close to being identical as two bullets can be: both .355/.357 diameter, both within a few grains of weight, both moving close to the same velocity. How can one be a world class manstopper and the other inadequate and weak? The 9mm's bad press came from using FMJ rounds (which if you still carry these in any handgun you are silly) but more importantly it is about shot placement, which comes down to how many and how quickly can you put rounds into vital areas of your opponent before he does the same to you. I have been a police officer for over 20 years and I can tell you a lot of officers and most civilian amateur's who shoot the 9mm normally have better scores (timed shooting drills) than those shooting the more powerful wonder guns (reduced recoil, leads to better muzzle control and quicker more accurate follow up shots). Just because you have a cannon it doesn’t do you any good if you can't rapidly puts rounds on target, because survival in a real life gun fight requires both accuracy and speed. Without both you came in second and that’s a very bad place to be. So while you are fighting the recoil of your hand artillery, blinded by the muzzle flash and generally just trying to get your weapon back on target. Think about the fact I will steadily popping away at you with my inadequate and weak 9mm. Personally having the equalivant of 15 plus 125 grain .357 Golden Sabers in my autoloader gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling and I will never again feel the need to defend my choice of carrying a puny 9mm (with the right loads of course) again.
Why go with a subsonic 147 when you can have a supersonic one!
Feet per second that is...
I think you said it all. I agree with you 100%.
I carry the cheapie Winchester 'Personal Protection' 147grHPs and don't think twice about it. They're not 'premium' bullets, but I can afford to buy enough of them to know that they will feed and cycle in each of my 9mms reliably every time I pull the trigger.
If you look at both these examples, 125gr expands slightly more, and penetrates only slightly less. It's just a split hair difference. Being a shorter bullet, it's also likely to fit in the magazines better.
I believe there is no substitute for velocity. There is also no substitute for a bigger caliber. I own one 9mm. I own several 45acp pistols. I also own one 10mm revolver. If I carry (sometimes) the 9mm its loaded with 124gr jhp +P+. The 45’s are generally loaded with 200gr jph +P.
It doesn't look to crush any more tissue than the regular loads from the big names. I wouldn't take an increase in recoil for no pay off.
do the math and add Ft Lbs by doing the math:
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps/510 Ft Lbs - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps/470 Ft Lbs- 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps/413 Ft Lbs - 14.00" / .66"
So much for the calc. for kinetic energy
From a different manufacturer, with standard pressures
all using Hornady XTP JHPs - the bullets cost half that of Gold Dot...
115 gr. @ 1,208 FPS 373 ft lbs
124 gr. @ 1,150 FPS 364 ft lbs
147 gr. @ 1,090 FPS 388 ft lbs
That's with a 4" Bbl. for the Hornady
what barrel length does Double Tap use?
Oh, and somebody said why use a sub sonic load?
How about you're inside a room? duh...
In 9mm, I prefer a standard pressure 124 gr loading with 115 gr being my second choice.
My experiences have been with the guns I use, the POA/POI is best ( what gun is regulated for) and the recoil curve affords me quick effective hits.
Some guns, are spec'd for loads, and I actually pay attention to what a gun is spec'd for, not only for pressure, also wear and tear on the gun, and fatigue on parts.
Some of the folks we have assisted with, with smaller polymer guns, report the 147 is "thumpy" and messes with POA/POI as well.
Nothing, if they are on the list below.
These aren't your Daddy's 9mm loads of the 1980s. They have all passed FBI standardized test protocol and are used by police agencies around the country.
The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (Q4364)
about .400 CorBon, 155 gr. Speer Gold Dot @ 1400 FPS
get that out of a 4" BBl. .357 158 gr. sure doesn't
happen out of my 686P.
Back to bullet weights in 9MM
This is a bit off topic, but quite often when someone posts a list of ammunition that is deemed "acceptable", Hornady doesn't make the list. Why is that? They seem to be unmentioned a lot of times, with the focus going to Federal, Winchester, etc. I guess you could say I'm a bit of a Hornady fanboy... their ammunition has always been extremely accurate and has always done its job when I use it for hunting purposes. If I had to use ammo from only one manufacturer, I'd pick Hornady. Just wondering why it doesn't always make the grade...
There is nothing wrong, whatsoever, with 9mm 147 gr. ammunition. In fact, it offers many advantages over the lighter offerings. I carried such a load throughout my career as a sworn LEO and never felt undergunned or "ill-at-ease" while doing so.
Some observations regarding the 9mm 147 gr. bullet offered for your consideration:
1. Generally, the 147 tends to offer better accuracy since the longer/heavier bullet has a longer (more) bearing surface enabling it to more fully engage the rifling of the barrel in addition to being subsonic, a factor that also improves accuracy due to the fact that the bullet never passes through the sound barrier (trans-sonic region) which tends to destabilize a bullet in flight as the bullet passes through that velocity range.
2. The 147 offers greater down range velocity retention than 115 grain and 124 grain loadings since it has more momentum over a bullet of lighter weight at the same, or close to the same velocity. The 9mm 147 grain at 975 fps (factory standard) has 7.9% more momentum than a 115 grain bullet at 1155 fps (factory standard) and 3.2% more momentum than a 124 grain bullet at 1120 fps (factory standard) and loses less velocity over any range than the lighter offerings.
The 147 also retains its velocity better due to it's higher ballistic coeffiecient than the shorter 115 grain and 124 grain bullets of the very same caliber. As an example, my favorite 147 JHP, the Hornady XTP has a B.C. of .212 whereas the average 9mm 115 grain JHP bullet has a B.C. of .110-.120 and the average 9mm 124 grain JHP bullet has a B.C. of .120-130. The numbers don't lie.
3. The 147 grain JHP also has a sectional density of .1666 which is 3.6% greater than that of the legendary .45 ACP 230 gr. bullet whose sectional density is .1608 making it not only an exceptionally good penetrator, but again also enhances down range velocity retention.
4. Today's 147 grain SD JHP's are engineered to be much less sensitive to velocity than past designs and expand just as reliably, not mention just as much, as do the 115 and 124 grain offerings while offering significantly deeper penetration as well.
5. While standard velocity subsonic 147 grain loads have higher momentum than the standard velocity 115's and 124's, and therefore increased recoil when fired in guns of the same mass, they also offer decreased muzzle signature since the bullet does not cross the sound barrier which creates the additional miniature "sonic boom" that the 115 and 124 grain loads do as they leave the barrel. Greater muzzle signature (with supersonic velocities) is what causes "flinching" and most folks are hard pressed to distinguish the relatively small difference of recoil (less than 10%) of the 147 grain load over that of the standard velocity 115 grain load. If you push the 115 grain 9mm bullet to +P velocities (~1250 fps, SAAMI spec.) as some are inclined to do, the 115 gr. at 1250 fps and 147 gr. at 975 fps produce the same amount of recoil (less than 1% difference, the 115 gr. being the greater of the two) and any advantage in terms of using a lighter bullet in order to reduce recoil evaporates at that point.
The Hornady bullet (147 XTP) tends to be more of a "controlled expansion" round opening to ~.55" and penetrating to 14 inches or more in calibrated ballistic gelatin.
Other ammunition such as that offered by Winchester, the Ranger standard pressure 147 gr. JHP (RA9T) for example, tends to expand to ~.65" and penetrate to just shy of the 14" mark. It's penetration and expansion actually exceed that of the Winchester Ranger 9mm +P+ 127 grain JHP (RA9TA) which expands to .64" and penetrates to 12.3" and also tends to be a little harder on the guns that it is fired in as well causing an accelerated rate of wear.
I suspect that since the XTP, an older design, does not offer the terminal expansion numbers that the newer offerings like the HST does it goes largely unnoticed and unlauded despite the fact that it has always been an extremely accurate design, another important and sometimes overlooked criterion in selecting a good SD load. I, too, like it and carry it in my Glock 17 all the time, all year long. Looks like Hornady realized that if they wanted to participate in the SD arena, they had to come up with an updated offering like the TAP "FPD" and "CQ" series. I see no significant benefit in the black nickel coated cases other than that of corrosion protection, an attribute that I render unnecessary by shooting and changing out my carry ammo every month or sooner when I go to the range. The "CQ" loading has everything that I want, but if you like the nifty looking black nickel coated cases then go for it.
If you want to use 147 grain JHP in your defensive/CCW weapon than have at it, it is good stuff.
The big difference between the 124 and 147 is ME... I'll take the higher ME for a little more frag and deposit. Just me though....
Texasboy was talking about how reduced-velocity loads for the .357 Magnum do not hinder those rounds' performance, and the best rounds for the 9mm +P are 127-grain rounds which operate at the same velocity. He said that he'd rather have the 15-17 rounds of 9mm that equal the reduced velocity .357 Magnum than go with rounds with less velocity such as the 147-grain.
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