Why This Fixation On Elite Forces?

[MudPuppy]

I spent one day on KP while I was in (it wasn't for a screw up, we all got rotated in--and I was the green one).

Wow, up before first call and worked my butt off til about midnight. I guess those guys did a few days on, a few days off, but they kept a brutal pace. And I was fresh out of infantry AIT and in the best shape of my life.

Sniper, Ranger, SEAL, whatever. The army cooks are the ones they should be making movies about.

 

[nibb]

I agree with Checkman, people like to feel or be heroic, and mostly we see on moves that SWAT or Seals are the best of the best so we get a fixation on that.
People forget the street cops or the field soldier, they are the ones that die normally, and people see how there practically an Elite force kills and nevers gets killed, that is just not because they are elite because they dont do the same job as the normal soldier, and there arent so much of them around on the field, and if they have tons of downs they dont go so public on it since they where an elite unit.

I think the real heroe would be street cop that does the job that a SWAT does, but then without the Swat weapons, or the training or even with the Support that a SWAT unit gets on every operation.

 

[AlaskaErik]

One thing I do know about the SF types is: If they do it, and see it, they don't talk about it.

I agree. I've worked with a number of Navy SEALs over the years and I've never had one brag about his exploits. And yeah, they were real SEALs, because we first go to Coronado to pick them up. Definitely a party hardy crowd, though. One of their TDY items is a blender!

 

[AlaskaErik]

You wanna be admired as a warrior? Become an elite warrior.

Or you can just claim to be one and still revel in the glory...until you're exposed. I've tripped up a couple of people over the years. One claimed to be a Marine and couldn't even tell me what rank the Commandant was. (Hint, he's not an admiral). The other claimed to be a Guardsman heading for Iraq. This one was a little smoother, but it was soon apparent that there were a number of inconsistancies in his story. He finally admitted he wasn't in the Guard...yet.

 

[Gatordad699]

I retired from the Navy after 23 years. I was a nuclear trained submarine Chief Electricians Mate. IMHO we tend to worship or like what other groups of people do because it it not what we do. I have been told by Marines, Marine Recon, Army vets from Iraq and Army vets from Iraq 91 that what I did on a submarine was crazy. They thought that we were nuts for going several hundred feet under water, living in AC comfort and wondering what the evening movie was. When I was getting out and interviewing for jobs, I was at a job fair in Atlanta. Several Army vets were sitting around talking about incoming fire during chow. Myself and my sub-vet friend asked them about the incident. When they learned that we had served on subs, all they wanted to talk about was the stuff we had done. We thought what they did was cool/nuts and they thought that what we did was cool/nuts. My humble point is humans tend to find the job they do as just that, a boring, we do it every day job. They tend to wonder what certain jobs are like because they do not get to do them.

 

[Diamondback6]

A great many valid observations above, but let's add one more to the pile:

As a society, we need heroes to worship, people who seem "larger than life"--if not to strive to be like them, to take reassurance in the fact that they're out there, standing watch to hold the Things That Go Bump In The Night at bay.

 

[GLOCK19XDSC]

John Wayne was a Green Beret...and that's good enough for me!

"One Hundred men, we'll test today
but only three, win the Green Beret"

 

[JohnL2]

Yeah, KP is an experience. What most people don't understand is that everyone E-3 and below in rank must do KP. It's like an unwritten contract between the battalion support personnel and the line companies. Otherwise your outfit will not be getting a hot breakfast and hot dinner. MRE's all around boys. That would suck.
YOU BUST YOUR ASS ALL FREAKING DAY.
The big benefit about it is that the cooks pretty much give you all the food you want. That means A LOT. You're burning so many calories a day that you are constantly hungry. I ate like crazy and I couldn't keep my weight up.

Oh yeah, I fell for that wanting to "feel special" urge too when I joined.
Then I learned that an Army cook can go to Ranger school. Yeah, a cook walking around with a Ranger tab.
I felt that only combat arms should have access to those schools but just about anyone can go. Promotion points see.
That burst my bubble.
All combat arms jobs are tough. It's the specialization and group designation that some people are fixated on. The only guys who I thought had it worse than us grunts for hardship were the combat engineers. The crap they did. My God. Unsung heroes those guys.

 

['Card]

The whole 'elite' concept is kind of a misnomer when applied to today's military.

The original idea of an 'elite' unit was that it was made up entirely of volunteers. No draftees or conscripts. You had to volunteer to be Airborne, so the WW2 Airborne Divisions came to be thought of as 'elite' units. Today's military is all-volunteer, so by that criteria our entire military could be considered an elite force.

As far as the hype over SF, Rangers, Pathfinders, SEALs, etc. - a lot of that is just marketing. During the 80's and 90's all of the services (but especially the Army) were trying to change post-Vietnam public perception, and one of the ways they did that was by constantly promoting their elite units. Hollywood picked up on that and just about every movie of that period had to feature an elite unit or an elite soldier.

I'm not saying that there isn't a lot of value in those units, but I think most veterans understand (even if the public doesn't always) that it's all about the particular mission. You want an airport captured? That'd be the Rangers. You want to stir up trouble in the enemy's backyard? That's SF's show. You want to hammer open a corridor all the way to Baghdad and roll directly into downtown? For that job, you want the grunts. 3rd ID, baby. Dog soldiers.

Oh, and from personal experience? I was with the 82nd, and I can tell you we thought the elite thing was mostly a joke. Yeah, we jumped out of planes, but that was just the delivery system. Once our boots hit the ground we were just grunts like everybody else, with less firepower and less ammo than most.

 

[John-Melb]

I spent eight years in the Australian Army (1982-90).

I've met a few "special" types, out of uniform and in the pub, you'd never pick them unless they told you, and unless you an ex-digger yourself, they ain't likely to tell you. If they do, it will be very low key, something along the lines of "Oh yeah, I spent some time with the XXXXX too".

 

[308win]

An AR Special Forces comes in our store almost everyday when he is on duty (leo). He has been deployed three times (that I know of) and never says a word about when/where/why is going or has been.

When I was in basic (1970) we had an Lt. who was on post confinement for some infraction who had been in a LRRP unit. Factoring in the special forces personnel I have personal knowledge of this LRRP is the one I would be sure to have on my side.

I think the fascination is the barstool commandos who get all of their impressions from movies and TV shows.

 

[Kali Endgame]

We have a family friend that was a Full Bird Colonel in the Rangers. I met him when I was at my MOS school in NC. This man served for 26 years, IIRC. When I met him, at Christmas time, he had retired about six months prior, had a beard and wore Mr. Rogers' sweaters. He was enrolled in culinary classes and made all the projects Martha Stewart did. Completely opposite to what he had been doing for most of his adult life. I asked him what unit he was with and he simply said Rangers. I found out from other people his rank and by looking at the blue DOD sticker, with an Eagle, on his car. Looking at the guy you would think he is in great shape for his age and nothing more. Nice guy and great cook.

 

[Baldy518]

My Father was a WWII hero

My Father was a U.S. Navy Pharmacist's Mate. He knew since he was 3 years old that he wanted to be a Medical Doctor. He heeded the call of our country during World War II by joining the U.S. Navy, like so many generations of our family before him, dating back to the Revolutionary War. He was in the South Pacific, aboard a ship, then stationed on some little island, placed there to mend the soldiers, sailors and marines that would get wounded in battle.
He survived the war without a scratch, and returned to the U.S. and worked his way through medical school. He established a doctors office in our home, and was modest in his ways of spending, and in his medical practice as well. He never had a fancy car, like many doctors of today. He did not play golf or go on expensive vacations. He would charge his patients only what they could afford to pay. He and my mother raised a family of 7 kids.
I remember him cheerily telling stories about cannibals on the island and being stuck there on the island with only the steak supplied by the Navy and lobster caught in the sea for months with nothing else to eat. Surf and turf must be boring if you eat too much. I do not ever remember him telling us kids any stories about battles, the names of islands, the sounds of gunfire or the horror of mangled boys being placed before him, with hopes for a miracle.
My father is now 81 years old, and is still MY hero. He was diagnosed with Parkinson's a few years ago, and has been recently developing signs of dementia. We are fortunate to have a Veteran's Hospital 15 minutes away, so when he gets admitted there, I can see him often.
Heroes come in many sizes, shapes and colors. Please do not forget the ones who feed us to the ones who sew us up, and so many in between.
Baldy

 

[rbernie]

I don't think the people who choose to do this do it to be admired as "elite warriors." I sure hope that's not it.

It's not about being admired by OTHERS as a warrior - it's knowing that you've been tested and passed that's important to many. We each do that in our own way. Why should warriors be any different? Those that are motivated to be the best will try to find those organizations that challenge them and push them and (thru the accomplishment of goals) reward them for their efforts. Pretty universal stuff.

That all seems to be out the window now, and unless you're in Team Biscuitboy and can drop a foe at fifty yards with one clench of your mighty jaw your service is somehow meaningless. I don't like it.

I guess I'm just not seein' that. I fly a lot, and I see a lot of folks in uniform in airports. I've yet to see a service member in uniform that didn't get treated with respect by everyone they encountered, regardless of the service member's MOS or where they were going.

Hollyweird may play up on the 'e-leet Gubbmint killin' machine' mystique because it sells tickets, but it still seems to me that most plain folk don't translate that much into daily interactions.

What about the guy "flying a desk" who translates Arabic? Not many can do that. The pointy tip of the spear is a safety razor without the shaft behind it. The worship of spec. ops. does not arise because they're somehow more important to the military than others. At any particular point the military may in greatest need of a computer programers, medics or guys who can drive trucks.

Concur in general, but the fact is that the Arabic translator does NOT often risk dying a gruesome death on a faraway piece of rock if he screws up. The guy with boots on the ground, on the other hand, just might. That makes us look at the guys with boots on the ground a wee bit differently - they simply have more skin in the game than the rest.

I'm not saying that there isn't a lot of value in those units, but I think most veterans understand (even if the public doesn't always) that it's all about the particular mission.

+1.

 

[Cosmoline]

Thanks for all the input. It sounds like this is more of a problem with civilians than it is within the military, which is good to hear. 'Card's point is well taken. I suspect marketing and movies may be to blame for much of the wanabe problem. Maybe we do need more shows about Army cooks.

but the fact is that the Arabic translator does NOT often risk dying a gruesome death on a faraway piece of rock if he screws up.

Unless he's in the field and gets captured by a death squad. One of them is still missing, and if he's very lucky he's dead. Lord knows plenty of cooks and guys in the "rear" have gotten killed. The supply convoys are a prime target.

 

[another okie]

If we change the question slightly to why movies and video games are fixated on special forces it becomes easier to answer.

A full-scale modern battle with artillery, air cover, off-shore naval bombardment, tanks, motorized infantry, etc. is so confusing and so big that you just can't take it all in.

Five Rangers attacking an isolated enemy position is comprehensible. We feel as if we can understand what's going on.

 

[ericman]

Look at it this way,

I have never been in the military but I came to this conclusion.

Who is a better athlete? The guy who can run a six minute mile and do 120 pushups or the guy who runs an 8 minute mile and does 60 pushups? Should the same concept not be applied to the military?

Who is a better warrior? The dude who scores max on all his PT scores, and passes courses with super high drop out rates? Or the dude who does basic training and some school with a low drop out rate?

Thats how I look at it. The dude who passes BUDs (which has like a 75 percent failure rate) is likely tougher than the guy that cleans latrines. (Although both get my thanks for serving the country).

 

[xd45gaper]

Sniper Rifle

what gets me is all the people that want to build a "sniper" rifle... how about calling it a target rifle or a bench rifle or a Really heavy i will never use this any where besides at the range rifle or maybe to shoot coyotes at 600+ yards rifle. a sniper rifle is used to kill people at long ranges, not punch holes in a piece of paper at 100 yards

 

[TexasRifleman]

a sniper rifle is used to kill people at long ranges, not punch holes in a piece of paper at 100 yards

That's all a good number of real sniper rifles ever do as well you understand, though the paper is usually further away.

 

[xd45gaper]

thats not my point lol, my point was all these suburban combant sniper wannabee's calling there target rifle a sniper rifle lol!

 

[Cosmoline]

Who is a better warrior? The dude who scores max on all his PT scores, and passes courses with super high drop out rates? Or the dude who does basic training and some school with a low drop out rate?

Like that worthless little guy called Murphy who couldn't pass muster to get into the Marines or the Airborne.

Don't put too much faith in tests. Sometimes the toughest guys start out digging ditches or flipping pancakes. Often they don't take orders too well, or mind the rules of polite society. And the brightest bulbs in training often turn out to be short lived when it really hits the fan. One lesson of history is you can never tell how people are going to react. The drunk at the bottom of his class may prove to be a better leader in the field than the fellow with no demerits and a perfect uniform.

 

[rbernie]

Don't put too much faith in tests. Sometimes the toughest guys are digging ditches or flipping pancakes.

But you have to admit that the law of averages favors those who are willing to test themselves and/or who actually have skin in the game....

One lesson of history is you can never tell how people are going to react.

But that's tangential to the issue at play, I think. You started out by wondering why the 'elite' warrior caste was held upon whatever pedestal it resides. I'm not sure how coming up with exceptions to the selection criteria for fighting forces really addresses that question one way or another.

Yes - there are bada$$es in all walks of life. You can be a warrior without being associated with the warrior caste. But it is simple human nature for folk to admire those capable of wreaking violence upon 'the enemy', and those that are purported to be more adept at that are more admired than those who are not.

Call it bloodlust, call it natural selection in action, call it what you will - it is what it is.

Me? I was Signal Corp. material. No elite fighting service member here.

 

[Jim Watson]

I saw an article recently about the Democratic fixation on elite forces, they are proposing to double the size of the Special Forces. Which cannot realistically be done, there are not that many guys with the necessary combination of abilities and capabilities.

I think it is because they are drawn to the notion of having highly trained experts do about anything, not admitting that ordinary folks can. Especially the military, which obviously opresses the poor with a volunteer army by giving them no other opportunity for employment; and they certainly don't want an evenhanded draft which would include THEM.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Elite

e·lite or é·lite (ĭ-lēt', ā-lēt') pronunciation
n., pl. elite or e·lites.

1. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status: “In addition to notions of social equality there was much emphasis on the role of elites and of heroes within them” (Times Literary Supplement).

2. The best or most skilled members of a group: the football team's elite.​

[French élite, from Old French eeslite from feminine past participle of eeslire to choose, from Latin ēliligere. See elect.]

In other words "the chosen," as in "many are called, few are chosen."

Then, of course, there are those who "choose themselves" as the "select few" and those we call "elitists" rather than "the elite."

Everybody wants to belong.

If you have been chosen, then you really belong! You are the most belonging dude on the block.

 

[JohnL2]

Me? I was Signal Corp. material. No elite fighting service member here.

rbernie, funny you should mention that. One of my Lts. got so fed up with the cheezing of some of the Infantry officer corps that he jumped MOS and quit the infantry to join the Signal Corps! Hahaha!
I remember when he dropped by for a visit to the company. He looked much happier!
One of my NCO's, a real cool guy and decorated Gulf War vet quit the Infantry too and joined Army Finance!