Why to sight a 1911 for 100 yards.

[grnzbra]

I was looking at an ammo manufacturer's balistic table for their 230 grain rn 45ACP round. When the gun is sighted for 100 yards, the bullet will be 4.x inches high at 25, 6.y inches high at 50, 4.z inches high at 75 and right on at 100.

When the gun is sighted at shorter distances, the 100 yard point of impact drops off significantly, requiring one to aim above the target. At that distance, one is dealing with guestimates and doesn't need to be adding to the problem by aiming above the target and, thereby, obscuring his view of it.

I checked the verticle distance between my throat and my nose and it is about 6 inches. So, at any range betwee 0 and 100 yards, a shot aimed at the throat should strike between the throat and the nose. (assuming one is capable of making that shot)

Comments please.

 

[Cosmoline]

What are you going to be shooting at fifty yards distant with a 1911, let alone 100? I can see having some fun with targets, but it's no rifle. I wouldn't even want to tempt myself to try a shot that long outside the range.

 

[Jason Demond]

I always like to take pot shots at targets out to 100 yards, but 25 yards is the norm.

I figure if I can hit an 8" steel plate at 25 yards, any bad guy that gets within that range, is dead meat.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

IIRC, my 1911 is zeroed at 50. this is good enough.

 

[Average Guy]

I believe it's Jim Cirillo (among others) who admonishes us to know our weapons' holdover. Just one more tool...

 

[grnzbra]

I just checked the table for the same bullet with a 25 yard zero. If you suddenly found yourself having to take a 100 yard head shot, you'd need a 16.9 inch holdover.

It just seems that if the bullet rises no more than 6.x (ok, let's say 7 inches) , unless you needed a guaranteed instant stop, you would be able to aim where you want to hit and you will be no more than 7 inches high on a verticle target. At 25 yards and in you will be less than 5 inches high and somewhere in there you would be right on. On the other hand, if you were ever faced with a must take it 100 yard shot, 16.9 inch holdover has too much guestmimation because your view of the target is obstructed or, instead of the precision front sight in clear focus with rear sight not quite in sharp focus looking for a straight line across the tops of the sights with the target a blur would be less complex than having to place the front sight on the target while placing the rear sight somewhere down the barrel.

 

[MICHAEL T]

Well with that 16in drop if you aimed for the head should hit about belly botton. Guess that would work, however I wouldn't want to try to convince the jury it was SD unless subject was a sniper.

 

[Redlg155]

There is no point in engaging any target with a handgun at that distance. That's where the subguns and rifles shine. If the target is that far away you have enough time to transition to another weapon.

However, it is a good thing to know if you could hit at that range and what your holdover would be.

Good Shooting
Red

 

[pbman]

4 inches high at 25 yards seams about right for shooting bullseyes at a 6 o'clock position, and that used to be quit common use for a .45

 

[nitesite]

what Ayoob says

Okay, you may or may not agree with Ayoob but he is considered by some to be an expert in the field of self-defense shootings. He's not a top shooter in todays world, but he has spent a lifetime studying. To quote him from an article in American Handgunner:

"at +P pressure, a 185-grain bullet is running about 1,150 fps out of a 5-inch barrel and at about 1,070 fps from a shorty. At that speed, you're going to get more violent tissue disruption. For me, a big advantage of 185-grain +P is that at 75 or 100 yards, it'll usually print where the sights are if the gun is sighted in dead-on for 230-grain ball at 25 yards. This makes it my choice when I'm anyplace where a long shot might be required."

Here's the link to an analysis of the best loads for the five major calibers used in self defense shootings...


http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_3_48/ai_82551648

Take it for what it's worth and make your own analysis.

nitesite

 

[Majic]

What surprises me is the sheer number of people who have no idea of what they can do with a handgun past 25 yards (many don't even shoot that far). If for no more than curiosity you should at least try shooting at longer ranges. It's really not that difficult and more importantly expands your skills.

There is no point in engaging any target with a handgun at that distance.

Well there are very good valid points for long range handguning. Go out in the field and hunt with a handgun. Give the silhoulette games a whirl. Not everytime you pull the trigger constitutes self defense or practice of such activity.

 

[mustanger98]

In "Hell, I Was There", Elmer Keith said one guy he worked with (I use the term "worked with" loosely because they were at odds) at Ogden Arsenal said you couldn't hit anything past 25yds with a 1911. Elmer Keith said he could hit a lot further out. So they, with a big crowd, went out to the range and he picked out a snow drift about 18" high by about 3' wide and put two or three mags into it, IIRC. Then he invited that other guy to stand out there while he shot it again. The guy declined.

 

[c_yeager]

I just checked the table for the same bullet with a 25 yard zero. If you suddenly found yourself having to take a 100 yard head shot, you'd need a 16.9 inch holdover.

What if you have to make the MUCH MORE LIKELY head shot at 7 yards? You dont really want to have to deal with guesswork at that range.

 

[carebear]

Not sure if it was Keith, but one of the sixgunners I read said that that was a plus to the ramped, striated front sight. Take the gun out to a KD range and, with the front sight at point of desired impact on the target, figure out which striation the top of the rear sight notch has to be even with to hit poa/poi. Then either remember it or mark it.

Kinda like a ladder sight in practice, no holdover, just some "up angle" from your normal hand position.

 

[BigG]

I like shooting handguns at 100 yards. With the 45 auto, as conceived by Browning and manufactured by Colt, you are soon looking at the fat part of the slide if you try much holdover.

 

[Hal]

Which mfg is using those figures?

They seem excessive.

Rem and Fed both list a drop of only 6.X in @ 100 yards for the 230 gr .45acp. That's consistant with the 50 yard performance I've gotten with .45acp - .45 LC - .44spl/mag using slugs in the 230 to 255 gr weight at 900 or so fps.

 

[Zach S]

If I have to take a shot at 100 yards with my 1911, I'm going for cover, and my AR...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Calculating and comparing drop rates is a little tricky. I wonder how Rem and Fed can say that the drop of their 230 gr rounds is on 6.x" at 100 yards. This figure cannot be right for a round fired out of a leveled barrel. It may be right for a gun sighted in at another distance where the sight alignment is level, but the barrel is actually at a slight upward angle. Bob Forker (Ammo and Ballistics book) notes that 230 gr +P ammo has about a 20" drop at 100 yards. 230 gr. regular pressure ammo drops anywhere from 23-32" at 100 yards.

Obviously, grnzbra is not shooting a level barrel as his rounds are climbing before getting to 100 yards and his suggestion to zero at 100 yards sounds like a pretty good idea. I think I would like to see more information on sighting at longer distances relative to trajectory arc of travel.

Commonly, pistols are sighted in at 25 yards, especially some of the SD 1911s. Not many folks are going to be engaged in SD situations at distances such at 100 yards. They aren't likely to be in shootings at 25 either, but 25 is a much more likely scenario than 100. So 4" high at 25 yards seems a little overly off as a SD consideration.

Pistols can be used to engage targets at 100 yards, but the short sight radius and often overly fat sights (compared to the petite, thin rifle sights) tends to make shooting at that distance more difficult even though the gun is mechanically cabable. It is probably a lot more reasonable to sight in one's gun at more realistic perceived SD distances below 100 yards. If I were going to increase my zero distance, it probably would not be over 50 yards, but for the time being, 25 seems like a very good standard.

 

[nitesite]

Double Naught Spy

Very well-written post and I cannot find a single point to debate you on!

I completely agree.

(Not that that is worth anything

GREAT JOB!

 

[Bwana John]

Tangent Rear sight like the old Hi-Power!

Seriously, I find no reason to regulate sights on a .45acp for farther than 50 yds.

 

[Smoke]

While I fully realize there are better tools for shooting out to and past one hundred yards, and while I further recognize that the likely hood of me needing to defend myself with a handgun at that distance is slim...I also think being able to hit a man-sized target at 100yrds to be a good tool to have in my tactical bag of tricks.

And my guns are zeroed for 25yrds.

Smoke

 

[Kinsman]

It's no 1911, but I shoot at 100yds with my .44 blackhawk 7 1/2" barrel all the time.
Took some big critters that way.

 

[waktasz]

Get faster bullets!

 

[Gunpacker]

Sighting Distance

Grnzbra, you are indeed intelligent to know that handguns are capable of much more than many of the shortsighted folks posting on your thread. "Get a rifle" is a great idea for a self defense situation at 100 yds.If you have the luxury. However, knowing your gun is a great tool, and a wonderful bit of knowledge.
My idea for a handgun, though is a bit different. Since most defensive situations are most likely to occur at shorter ranges, and pinpoint accuracy might be required there, I would rather sight mine in at 25 yds. At 50 yds you would be only a couple of inches low, and there is where I want to be with my sights. I shoot enough to determine how much front sight to elevate above the rear at 100 though, so I can still be REAL close at 100, and even at 200. Simply shoot a bit elevating the sight and you will develop that ability.
Now if one wants a longer sight setting with a pistol, (I have used this method in Metallic silhouette matches with good success on occasion) I would suggest a 75 yd sight setting. Then at 25 and 50 you are no more than a couple of inches off, with 100 being about 4-5 low. Still in a kill zone, but if you know your gun, you will simply shoot 4-5 in high there, either with sight elevation or just aiming high. I feel that for what you are doing, a 75 yd setting is better by far.
I hate a gun that doesn't shoot POA at close ranges where bad guys might be most dangerous, and with them perhaps behind cover. Then you gotta aim. I feel the same way about military rifle sights that start at 200, or 300 yds. I want mine zeroed at 100 or 150.

 

[grnzbra]

What if you have to make the MUCH MORE LIKELY head shot at 7 yards? You dont really want to have to deal with guesswork at that range.

Aim for the tip of the chin at any distance. At 7 yards you might be about 2 inches high (that's a guess since on the way out to 25 yards it is rising to 4.+ inches). According to Ayoob, the guaranteed instant, one shot stop target is the size of the thumb and its base, pointed down with the tip at the base of the chin. So at anywhere between would produce an instant stop. (Actually, at some point it will be low by a maximum of the vertical distance from the sights to the center of the bore, but if he's that close, you won't be worrying too much about sight alignment.)

Why take the shot at all? You're the only cop around and the bad guys are shooting people with rifles and you are behind the only cover available and the distance is somewhere past 50 yards but less than 100 and you don't have a rifle and you can see they are wearing body armor and, while they haven't seen you yet, they are alert and will see you if you try to sneak across the open ground to get closer. You must either make the head shot or hide behind DeShanney vs. Winnegago County.

I got the trajectory numbers from a program downloadable from the Federal website. They also have figures for their 185 gr and the high point when zeroed at 100 is 5.+ inches.