Sunray
Member
"...when it full expands..." If it expands. There's no guarantee that it will. Mind you, no handgun round will expand 100% of the time.
Why use a .45?
- Thread starter dodging230grainers
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I wouldn't feel unprotected with a 9mm and I own a couple, but if I think bad things are going to happen I grab a 45 acp first and a 40 second, my 9's are the last to come out. Should a bullet fail to expand the 45 is nearly what quality 9mm does when it DOES expand, I like that. I have also shot animals with 9mm and 45 using good bullets, the difference is disctinct and the 45 clearly superior. 357 magnum with a good bullet outclasses the 45 acp on animals without a doubt, and I have some of them laying around here too. My only problem, and this coming from a revolver guy, is the cylinder of a revolver makes them harder to conceal for daily carry. For open carry or field carry a 357 magnum is a great choice.
My 357 holds 6 shots, my 45 holds 15, my 40 holds 16, and my 9mm holds 18. I am sticking with my 45.
My 357 holds 6 shots, my 45 holds 15, my 40 holds 16, and my 9mm holds 18. I am sticking with my 45.
Too Many Choices!?
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If I may,
They(the big three 9mm, .40S&W, and .45 ACP) are very close now'days. I agree with all the guys that say it depends on the platform the round is coming out of. If I can't have a long enough barrel to get some good velocity(for penetration) why use the 9mm? Like when I carry concealed(IWB), shorter is better, but detrimental to velocity(penetration). In this case, I choose .45 ACP, not because bigger is always better, but because it is less dependant on velocity for it's intended effect. This is the reason I will NEVER, EVER, get a 9mm pistol with a short barrel, you just took away the one thing you had going for it, speed. Now I also carry/use .40 S&W, shot out of the Glock 23(the mid-sized, OWB carry I can have a longer barrel). Since the barrel was going to be less than a full-sized, I wanted a little more ,"Oomph!!",behind each round when it hits. Which caused me to bypass 9mm, and head straight to the .40S&W! .40 S&W happens to be the best caliber for mid-sized hand guns,IMHO, due to its balance of this. The smaller the gun(shorter the barrel), the bigger the hole I want at the end of it; since a round with no velocity only has one thing going for it, it's size
...
*warning* Slight Side-track to my soap box *warning*
This is also why my AR pistol has a 10 1/2" barrel instead of the really cool 7 1/2" barrel that is so popular. With itty bitty bullets, velocity is your friend. If I had to take a weapon with that short of a barrel, I would want it to be a Krinkov type pistol(AK pistol),because, like I said above, once you take away the velocity from a bullet, all that is left is the diameter of the hole it will punch !
I now return you to your regularly scheduled caliber battle goofines... I mean goodness lol...
They(the big three 9mm, .40S&W, and .45 ACP) are very close now'days. I agree with all the guys that say it depends on the platform the round is coming out of. If I can't have a long enough barrel to get some good velocity(for penetration) why use the 9mm? Like when I carry concealed(IWB), shorter is better, but detrimental to velocity(penetration). In this case, I choose .45 ACP, not because bigger is always better, but because it is less dependant on velocity for it's intended effect. This is the reason I will NEVER, EVER, get a 9mm pistol with a short barrel, you just took away the one thing you had going for it, speed. Now I also carry/use .40 S&W, shot out of the Glock 23(the mid-sized, OWB carry I can have a longer barrel). Since the barrel was going to be less than a full-sized, I wanted a little more ,"Oomph!!",behind each round when it hits. Which caused me to bypass 9mm, and head straight to the .40S&W! .40 S&W happens to be the best caliber for mid-sized hand guns,IMHO, due to its balance of this. The smaller the gun(shorter the barrel), the bigger the hole I want at the end of it; since a round with no velocity only has one thing going for it, it's size
...*warning* Slight Side-track to my soap box *warning*
This is also why my AR pistol has a 10 1/2" barrel instead of the really cool 7 1/2" barrel that is so popular. With itty bitty bullets, velocity is your friend. If I had to take a weapon with that short of a barrel, I would want it to be a Krinkov type pistol(AK pistol),because, like I said above, once you take away the velocity from a bullet, all that is left is the diameter of the hole it will punch
! I now return you to your regularly scheduled caliber battle goofines... I mean goodness lol...
I have seen small deer (100-130 pound) hit with a 12 gauge shotgun slug in the heart run a hundred yards before dying. What handgun caliber compares to a 12 gauge slug?
I will practice more Mozambique drills as I have no confidence in the stopping power of any handheld weapon.
I will practice more Mozambique drills as I have no confidence in the stopping power of any handheld weapon.
I was watching the idiot bix the other night as I do every night. They were going through revolvers over the years. They came to a Brittish revolver in .450 that was said to be more effective in putting down unruly would Brittish subjects. In other words, the natives were less likely to get up after being hit by a .45 as opposed to the .38's they had at the time. More mass, larger hole, more blood loss. They adopted the .45 for a reason back then. Now the 9mm with the increased firepower in terms of rounds is probably about the same. Shoot them 3 times instead of once. Same difference.
Joey101
Member
I guess the reason I don't like the 9mm is because it's just too small. I feel much better about .45 then a 9mm. Bigger hole, larger surface area to strike a object, and yes more blood loss.
Plainly put a .45 hit center mass on a person will most likely kill them. Unless of course they are protected by something. Can anyone say that about a 9mm. I can see a 9mm killing a person if he were say shot in the head or any of the vitals. But your chances are slimer. And if members of my cities SWAT Team can't keep a person down with a 9mm then what are my chances? Not good. I have a much better chance of survival with a .45.
Plainly put a .45 hit center mass on a person will most likely kill them. Unless of course they are protected by something. Can anyone say that about a 9mm. I can see a 9mm killing a person if he were say shot in the head or any of the vitals. But your chances are slimer. And if members of my cities SWAT Team can't keep a person down with a 9mm then what are my chances? Not good. I have a much better chance of survival with a .45.
I remember that cop video where the perp was shot with a 45 to the stomach and proceeded to punch and wrestle the cop for several minutes. I'm convinced good 9mm today are only marginally inferior to the best 45 as to be insignificant. No I'm not interested in "war stories" regarding non-expanding bullets, irrelevant.
45acp is a fine cartrige and I certainly wouldn't feel under armed with it. But it's just a pistol round, which means it cannot be trusted.
45acp is a fine cartrige and I certainly wouldn't feel under armed with it. But it's just a pistol round, which means it cannot be trusted.
earthworm
Member
I forgot who said but one answer was,"Because noone makes a .50!"
Joey101
Member
"Actually, someone does- the .50 GI:
http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/50_gi.htm"
GOOD LORD!!!!!!
I am saving my pennies as we speak!!!!
http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/50_gi.htm"
GOOD LORD!!!!!!
I am saving my pennies as we speak!!!!
dodge
Member
Because I just like it. For me that's all it takes. There's something about the .45 that is just so American that it just warms my heart. I've owned and shot 9 mm's and I just can't warm up to the caliber. With that said I own a Ruger Blackhawk Convertable in 357/9mm that I have shot 1 box of 9mm through and probably not shot another box through it as it's not all that accurate with the 9mm cylinder in it.
A .45 with HP will expand to .60 to .70 when it full expands. That my friend will stop the target, most of the time a 9mm won't.
END QUOTE
Wrong. Good ammo in both calibers is simular. For example the Ranger T 45 acp 230 grain JHP +p expands to .79 caliber and goes about 14 inches.
The +p+ 127 grain Ranger we issue for the 9mm's goes about 13 inches and expands to .70 caliber. Most of your good 9mm jhp's (Ranger, Golden Saber, Golddot, HST ext) will expand between .60 and .70 caliber as reliably as any 45 or 40 load. As a swat trained officer I prefer a 1911 not because of the caliber but rather the gun itself. The 45 is nice and it gives you a slight edge. But the gun itself is the easiest to shoot well understress. The 1911 is the most common gun seen on SWAT and spec opps teams.
On the other hand the GLock 17 in 9mm is about the best gun for the average cop, soldier or home owner. Its very easy to shoot well has reasonable power for a pistol and is extreemly reliable and takes abuse well.
Pat
END QUOTE
Wrong. Good ammo in both calibers is simular. For example the Ranger T 45 acp 230 grain JHP +p expands to .79 caliber and goes about 14 inches.
The +p+ 127 grain Ranger we issue for the 9mm's goes about 13 inches and expands to .70 caliber. Most of your good 9mm jhp's (Ranger, Golden Saber, Golddot, HST ext) will expand between .60 and .70 caliber as reliably as any 45 or 40 load. As a swat trained officer I prefer a 1911 not because of the caliber but rather the gun itself. The 45 is nice and it gives you a slight edge. But the gun itself is the easiest to shoot well understress. The 1911 is the most common gun seen on SWAT and spec opps teams.
On the other hand the GLock 17 in 9mm is about the best gun for the average cop, soldier or home owner. Its very easy to shoot well has reasonable power for a pistol and is extreemly reliable and takes abuse well.
Pat
Should a bullet fail to expand the 45 is nearly what quality 9mm does when it DOES expand,
END QUOTE
Not to be rude but thats is wrong. Quality 9mms as I said before reliably expand from .60 to 70 caliber or more. Thats with at least 12 inches of penetration. 40's average about .63 to .75 and 45's average .60 to as much as .85.
Were not talking about a huge difference here.
Pat
END QUOTE
Not to be rude but thats is wrong. Quality 9mms as I said before reliably expand from .60 to 70 caliber or more. Thats with at least 12 inches of penetration. 40's average about .63 to .75 and 45's average .60 to as much as .85.
Were not talking about a huge difference here.
Pat
Having autos in both 9 and 45, I've come to this conclusion. Since the 9 is the first caliber I owned and fired thousands of times, I'm just better with it. [Even though both calibers are made by the same manufacturer...same style...and to tell the truth, don't handle all that much differently.]
For carry, I use Hydra-Shok in both, 147 in the 9, 230 in the 45. I'm confident that both weapons are good choices.
The 45 is kept handy in the house, for close in defense if needed, the 9 is my choice for street carry.
I just don't prefer FMJ's for anything but range work...and I don't have enough experience with smaller calibers to spout off about them...but I have another "abstract" line as far as caliber goes...giving me a gut feeling on a caliber that would be too small. Entirely subjective thinking on my part...
Having seen quite a few cases of Gun Shot Wounds in the course of my work, I'm also not impressed with stories of people being shot who didn't go down "as expected." I know for a fact that a BG on some drugs may actually appear to shrug off a centered hit, no matter what caliber was used...for a while anyway...as will some psychos...But, this does not diminish the good argument for bigger calibers for defense!!
I believe it all really boils down to the abstract formula that works best for each shooter, i.e., the combination of an acceptable caliber size, bullet type, rounds available in the mag, the shooter's experience with the gun...
For carry, I use Hydra-Shok in both, 147 in the 9, 230 in the 45. I'm confident that both weapons are good choices.
The 45 is kept handy in the house, for close in defense if needed, the 9 is my choice for street carry.
I just don't prefer FMJ's for anything but range work...and I don't have enough experience with smaller calibers to spout off about them...but I have another "abstract" line as far as caliber goes...giving me a gut feeling on a caliber that would be too small. Entirely subjective thinking on my part...
Having seen quite a few cases of Gun Shot Wounds in the course of my work, I'm also not impressed with stories of people being shot who didn't go down "as expected." I know for a fact that a BG on some drugs may actually appear to shrug off a centered hit, no matter what caliber was used...for a while anyway...as will some psychos...But, this does not diminish the good argument for bigger calibers for defense!!
I believe it all really boils down to the abstract formula that works best for each shooter, i.e., the combination of an acceptable caliber size, bullet type, rounds available in the mag, the shooter's experience with the gun...
StrikeEagle
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Why I Carry a .45
As far as I can tell there are TWO groups of people...
1) Those who feel that both .9mm and .45 ACP are fine
2) Those who feel that .9mm is insufficient and .45 is fine
See what I'm saying here? EVERYONE agrees that .45 ACP does a job of work.
Let armchair commandos and ballisticians debate the fine points of all this. Just carry a .45 and relax.
StrikeEagle
As far as I can tell there are TWO groups of people...
1) Those who feel that both .9mm and .45 ACP are fine
2) Those who feel that .9mm is insufficient and .45 is fine
See what I'm saying here? EVERYONE agrees that .45 ACP does a job of work.
Let armchair commandos and ballisticians debate the fine points of all this. Just carry a .45 and relax.
StrikeEagle
Bacon
Member
I see where 355sigfan compares a +P+ 9mm to a standard velocity .45.
I'm sure the 9mm is a good round but when comparing apples to apples, gimme the .45!
I'm sure the 9mm is a good round but when comparing apples to apples, gimme the .45!
turbonatr
Member
Perhaps an eye opener for those that think handguns possess "stopping power".
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2004/oct2004/oct04leb.htm#page_15
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2004/oct2004/oct04leb.htm#page_15
Vern Humphrey
Member
This tends to reinforce my own position that the "one shot stop" is not a valid criterion for measuring success -- what we should use is win/lose data.
What did the winners of gunfights use? What determined the outcome? Was it technique, training, caliber of handgun, type of bullet, or some other factor?
turbonatr
Member
As the above linked article hints at, caliber is not a definitive determining factor (remember Trooper Coates?). There are far too many variables that come into play...shot placement, bullet performance (different than caliber performance!), mindset of both the good and bad guys, etc. This is why arguing over which caliber is best is silly. How you use your chosen carry cartridge is far more important than what that cartridge is.
Your caliber won't determine who wins the fight, you will determine who wins the fight.
Your caliber won't determine who wins the fight, you will determine who wins the fight.
1911 guy
Member
Stopping Power
My humble opinion, while carrying a .45 auto, is if you know you're going to a gunfight, take a rifle. We carry pistols for "what if?" scenarios. Sure, I'll stick with my 1911 but if I have to use it I'll be wishing I had a shottie or rifle. Remember, not long after the advent of the revolver, cutlasses and sabres were no longer issued. Not counting dress occasions and ships RSL's, of course.
My humble opinion, while carrying a .45 auto, is if you know you're going to a gunfight, take a rifle. We carry pistols for "what if?" scenarios. Sure, I'll stick with my 1911 but if I have to use it I'll be wishing I had a shottie or rifle. Remember, not long after the advent of the revolver, cutlasses and sabres were no longer issued. Not counting dress occasions and ships RSL's, of course.
Wrong. Good ammo in both calibers is simular. For example the Ranger T 45 acp 230 grain JHP +p expands to .79 caliber and goes about 14 inches.
END QUOTE
Thats what I said bacon. You will see the little +P symbol next to the 45 acp Ranger load. You need to read the post before you reply. I like both the 9mm and the 45 acp. I carry +p ammo in both.
Pat
END QUOTE
Thats what I said bacon. You will see the little +P symbol next to the 45 acp Ranger load. You need to read the post before you reply. I like both the 9mm and the 45 acp. I carry +p ammo in both.
Pat
As if...
1. A ballistician for the FBI among scores of others reports that hp's only expand 40-50% of the time, and of course always at the expense of penetration (physics, darlin)
2. Number of shots in a mag is highly overrated (dare I say, IRRELEVANT?), as most engagements are proven to be 4 shots or less. Not to mention anyone who you plan on firing at 15 times is almost certainly firing BACK at you, and may be doing so with a superior caliber.
3. This one's easy. The big convincer. Sit a 9mm upright on a level surface. Sit a .45 next to it. No more questions, game over, good night!!!
TX
1. A ballistician for the FBI among scores of others reports that hp's only expand 40-50% of the time, and of course always at the expense of penetration (physics, darlin)
2. Number of shots in a mag is highly overrated (dare I say, IRRELEVANT?), as most engagements are proven to be 4 shots or less. Not to mention anyone who you plan on firing at 15 times is almost certainly firing BACK at you, and may be doing so with a superior caliber.
3. This one's easy. The big convincer. Sit a 9mm upright on a level surface. Sit a .45 next to it. No more questions, game over, good night!!!
TX
That is old data regarding expansion from about 10 years ago. Bullet technology has come along way. Good loads previously mentioned (Golden Saber, HST, Ranger) do expand far more than not in actual shootings.
I agree for the most part on capacity. But I will conceed to the high cap fans there is never a tactical disadvantage in having too much ammo. Also not all gunfights are average. Some involved lots of rounds at longer range. Don't count on having an average gunfight. Nothing about a gun fight feels average.
Ok the table test. Wow were talking about .10 difference in caliber. Its not that impressive. Compare each bullet to your body both are small in comparision.
I feel well armed with my 1911's in 45 acp and my Glocks in 9mm. The most important factor in stopping power is shotplacement. So I know if I fail it was me and not the ammo that did not do the job.
Pat
I agree for the most part on capacity. But I will conceed to the high cap fans there is never a tactical disadvantage in having too much ammo. Also not all gunfights are average. Some involved lots of rounds at longer range. Don't count on having an average gunfight. Nothing about a gun fight feels average.
Ok the table test. Wow were talking about .10 difference in caliber. Its not that impressive. Compare each bullet to your body both are small in comparision.
I feel well armed with my 1911's in 45 acp and my Glocks in 9mm. The most important factor in stopping power is shotplacement. So I know if I fail it was me and not the ammo that did not do the job.
Pat
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