Why use clips w/auto rounds in wheel guns?

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Oro

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This may be an obvious question, but I'm not 100% sure why clips are universally used when putting autoloading cartridges (9mm, 45 acp, etc) in revolver frames.

I know that in my autoloaders, the cases headspace on the case mouth, and all is fine. Why can't cylinders just be machined to those tolerances and we live happily without the hassle of clips? I can understand why they might have been necessary in the past, but still?

I'm curious because I'm finally interested in a .45 acp S&W for use as a trail gun when in the back country, but don't really want the hassle of clips. I guess a .357 will do the trick!

Thanks for any insight you all have to share...

Bryan
 
Because most all autopistol rounds are "rimless". The ejector on a revolver needs something to be able to push against to extract the rounds from the chambers. The halfmoon/moonclips provide a surface for the ejector to push on. Typical revolver rounds (38 spl, 357 mag, 44 mag, etc) have rims on them for the ejector to push on so they need no extra "help".
 
Because moonclips allow for the fastest revolver reloads and it's easier to make a cylinder that accepts them than it is to make six headspacing chambers.
 
it's easier to make a cylinder that accepts them than it is to make six headspacing chambers.
Click to expand...

That did not used to be a problem for S&W, (nor Colt after the first production run of 1917s.)

But some of the recent guns have to have the clips for headspace. The last magazine article on the subject said that the newer guns were held closer on cylinder throat diameter and were more accurate, but would misfire if shot without clips. The old guns were kind of sloppy in the throats but were held tight on headspace and would fire reliably if you did not mind picking the empties out with your fingernail or poking them out with a pencil.

S&W had the M547 9mm with a trick extractor to pull the rimless empties. The Phillips and Rodgers conversion cylinders (and guns) to shoot all 9mm and .38 ammo in the same gun had their own design. Ruger designed a rimless extractor but went with clips for sale of 9mm revolvers to the Friench. I don't know what a Manhurin or Korth 9mm cylinder does, but doubt they require clips.
 
As has already been mentioned, rimless cartridges won't eject from a revolver. They have to be picked out one at a time.

S&W has always chambered the 1917 & later variants of it (1950 Target, 25, 625) so individual cartridges will headspace in the cylinder, and can be fired without clips if desired.

Colt took a while to catch on with it's version of the 1917, and .45 ACP cartridges would drop through the holes in the early ones.
Later ones are chambered to headspace on the case mouth like the S&W's all were.

There are also .45 Auto-Rim cartridges that extract & headspace exactly like normal rimmed revolver cartridges.

As to the benefits, there is no way faster to reload a revolver.
Competation guns in .357 and other calibers are often modified to use full-moon clips to gain the fast reload advantage.

Full-moon clips take up less room in a speed-loader pouch then speed-loaders. Often times, 12 rounds in moon-clips will fit in a six round speed-loader case.

Half-moon clips take up even less room when nested together.

S&W 625-6 Mountain Gun, Full-moon clips, Half-moon clips, .45 AR cartridges:
100_3888.jpg

BTW: The new S&W frame mounted firing pin guns may mis-fire without clips.
This is due to the shorter firing pin reach as compared to the old hammer mounted FP guns. My 625-6 works fine without clips, but your milage may vary on another one just like it.

1224.jpg
rcmodel
 
I think the better question is why would you want to shoot auto rounds in a revolver? :neener:
 
There is another more sinister reason to buy an auto cartridge chambered revolver... to 'try' revolvers and revolver cartridges! I did this via the Ruger .45 Colt/ACP convertible Blackhawk - and, as I discharged my .45 Auto stash, I started my .45 Colt love affair. I later bought another .45 ACP chambered revolver - a new S&W 625 - great, as others have intimated, for 'fast' reloads. Also, they couldn't care less about bullet shape or OAL, much less power level. This makes bullets from FMJ ball Auto to lead SWC and power levels from mouse flatulance to basic hunting levels possible - in 'clipped Auto or plain toss-them-in-your-pockets AR cases. I don't mind moonclips one bit!

Stainz
 
I have two S&W 45acp revolvers, and two 10mm. All of them function perfectly with or without clips. With clips, reloads can be so fast that while a 1911 might fire 8rds faster, the revolver can beat it to 12. As already mentioned, in the revolver you can use most any bullet shape no problem, giving a lot more handloading options. The 10mm in particular is greatly limited by case capacity. In a revolver you can load long and get more powder in there. In the final analysis, many of us prefer revolvers to semi-autos, but like some of the rimless cartridges.
 
I also like the fact that my 1911 and my two discontinued Taurus 455 revolvers 6" & 2" use the same ammo. They are 5-shot wheelguns however, but they do allow for the frame to be smaller.
 
BigBlock wrote:
I think the better question is why would you want to shoot auto rounds in a revolver?:neener:
Click to expand...

My reply . . . said in a TOTALLY humorous way as if you were a fellow wheelgun match competitor asking that at a match, would be:

Why shoot auto rounds in a revolver? So I could wax your azzzz faster!;)

Seriously, I sometimes wonder why all revolvers aren't moonclipped. It is surely a much faster way to reload a weapon that's being fired in competition . . . OR in deadly combat . . . and thus, makes your revolver a more fomidable self-defense weapon.

I can shoot and reload my chopped 25-2 faster and more accurately in IPSC and other tactical match competitions than I can my tricked out, customized 1911.

IMHO, it makes a chopped 25-2 (ala a Jovino) or a short barrelled 625 in .45ACP, the ultimate self defense handgun in the hands of an experienced and skilled handgunner.

You don't have to be Jerry Mickulek to notice the difference either!;)

So . . . if you shoot competitively . . . bring your .357 or .38spl. to a revolver match sometime and volunteer to shoot in the classes where wheelguns use moonclips . . . and you'll get yourazzzz waxed REAL FAST!;):neener:

Have a wonderful Sunday, in any event!!!

T.
 
Seriously... HOLY CRAP!!! That guy is fast!
Click to expand...

Yeah? You should see him with an autopistol.

IIRC, one of his most used pistols is a 627 that has been altered so that it accepts .357s (or .38s, I don't know what loads he shoots) on moonclips. There are such beasts roaming around and this is done largely for increased speed of reload. Don't have to fumble with speedloaders. Empties come out all or none.
 
Long skinny cartridges like .38 or .357 wiggle around in clips and are not as smooth loading as short heavy .45 ACP. If you want to get the best out of them, it will take practice. And maybe a shorter round, there is some use of clipped .38 Short Colt in ICORE.
 
Hi again,

1. Any S&W 1917, 25-2, 625, 1955 Target Model, etc. that shoots .45ACP rounds can be loaded instead with .45 Auto Rim ammo. The Auto Rim cartridge simply converted the shooting ballistic performance of .45ACP ammo into a cartridge case that had a conventional revolver rim on the back of the cartridge.

Using .45AR ammo, you turn your .45ACP revolver into a conventional revolver . . . . forcing you to use speedloaders for fast loads in combat conditions. Why do this when moonclips are much faster . . . and MUCH cheaper to buy also!


2. You CAN load .45ACP into these revolvers WITHOUT USING MOONCLIPS . . . but the ejector "star" will not have a cartridge rim (since the .45ACP auto round is "rimless" to catch onto in order to eject the spent cartridges. So, you'll have to pluck the .45ACP cartridges with your finger. It's really no big deal at all when "plinking" around!

In the photo just below (top two frames), you can see a cylinder loaded with three .45Auto Rim rounds on top, and three .45ACP rounds on the bottom. In example 1. on the left top, all six rounds are fully seated. In example 2. on the top right, only the three Auto Rim cartridges are being ejected by the ejector star.

2220844IMG24664.JPG



In the two lower frames in the above photo, you'll see .45Auto Rim cartridges being ejected in the left photo, and six .45ACP, MOONCLIPPED cartridges being ejected in the right photo.

MOONCLIPS ARE FASTER!!!

Here's my custom, chopped 3 1/4" barrelled Model 25-2 that's won so many matches for me, along with moonclipped ammo that I take with it for self defense in my car . . . and at home.

2220845IMG2474-2.jpg



I believe I've got a really formidable combination here that I shoot better than any other gun. "SIX FER SHORE" . . . BACKED BY FORTY-EIGHT MOONCLIPPED ROUNDS!

The 48 moonclipped rounds are inserted into a single Federal 20 rnd. ammo holder that comes with their centerfire rifle ammo. It can even be mounted onto a belt! This allows me to carry the ammo, en masse, quite easily and grab the entire 48 rounds quickly with just one hand in case a BG forces me to take cover quickly.

Most are Federal HydraShocks, along with a clip of six x 230 gn. hardball (that will penetrate car doors well) and three moonclips of that brutal Aguila 115gn. stuff that a Sheriff Capitain told me is SO EFFECTIVE on car doors.


POOR, POOR ME . . . I'm totally at a disadvantage against a thug with his high cap. 9mm with the rig!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


Folks, this is one heck of a great defense set up!

Best of all, I can roll coke cans all day long with this handgun at 75 yards . . . so it is one heck of a rig that I have ultimate confidence in.

Plus, my best time in a 6-pin table Bowling Pin MATCH, from the low ready position was 3.82 seconds to clear the six-pin table at the standard 10 yards. Nahhh, that ain't Jerry Mickulek speed, but it ain't bad either for this ol' southpaw shootin' double action.

Yep, if ever TSHTF . . . THIS is the handgun I hope is in my hands.

22176851.JPG


T.
 
Last edited:
Ditto on what rcmodel said. Then there are the 1/3 moon

clips that hold 2 rounds. Very handy, especially because you can store the ammo in the original box. Reloads, although not as fast as full moon clips, are twice as fast as with single rounds, and can be carried unobtrusively in a pocket.
 
If Smith & Wesson brought back the 547, moon clips would not be an issue!
I believe Ruger made a Speed Six in 9 mm for a European customer that used a spring to engage the rim and extract the case. Have never seen one, only read about it.
 
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