Moon clip revolver - 9mm / 38 Super / 38 Short Colt?

[Esoteria]

Last summer I took up in earnest my quest for a moon clip revolver for general shooting and maybe some slightly-competitive action shooting. I started this thread asking about 9mm and 45 ACP revolvers, with my main condition being that I didn't want a stainless steel finish.

Settled on the S&W 325 Thunder Ranch, which I got last month. Took it out, realized the light weight was pretty brutal on recoil. Made MANY (i.e. 25+) different light loads with various powders to try out, but only Trail Boss was clean enough to make sense for high-volume shooting, and I can't find the stuff to buy.

More importantly I realized I was trying to make a lightweight, defensive .45 revolver into a soft-shooting range gun. At best it's an uphill battle, but more realistically I will probably never get where I want to go.

On the plus side, I really do love the moon clips.

So now I'm revisiting the whole concept. .45 ACP is out. Still couldn't find a full size factory 9mm in blue other than the Alfa Proj, which is never available for sale.

I discovered in my second round of research what many of you surely already know: There are 38 Super revolvers out there, which are probably (1) very expensive and (2) stainless steel.

I also realized that my main reason for choosing .45 ACP or 9mm was the moon clip requirement. I had essentially thrown out .357 or .38 due to the (supposed) difficulty in loading moon clips with those cartridges, but I hadn't heard of .38 Short Colt until just today. Incidentally I already load .38 S&W, which may or may not be able to share some dies if I went that route.

At this point it appears my best bet is to get a .357 magnum or .38 special modified for moon clips, and then use .38 Short Colt. If so...:
(1) What are some good options? I have a Dan Wesson 15-2, which I'm a huge fan of. Don't really want to modify it but I could buy another one or just an extra cylinder.... I realize "hey, what's a good blue .38/.357?" is a little open-ended, but I'm assuming there are some considerations I'll want to make for quick reloads and such, or...
(2) How do I go about getting a moon clip modification? Can almost any gun's cylinder have this done? Who does it? How much does it cost?
(3) Can I use .38 Special dies for resizing and .38 S&W for expansion and seating or should I get 9mm dies for that?

I'm also just looking for general advice/information on the topic. Any comments or experience is welcome. Am I wrong about .38 Super being expensive (>$1000) and stainless finish? If so, I assume 9mm is usable in the same revolvers? Is this generally a better idea?

 

[Drail]

One big advantage of moon clipped guns in .45 ACP is the rounds jiggle in the clip with more play which helps them self align with the charge holes when you try to drop one in fast. The smaller straight rimmed rounds with narrow grooves are more rigid so you have to line them up with more finesse. If you are going to shoot .45 ACP in competition an all steel gun is easier to shoot faster in my experience. But I have been beaten plenty of times by guys with .38 clipped guns. Alloy guns are fer carrying - steel guns are for actually shooting.

 

[rcmodel]

Who does it, and how much does it cost??

TKCustoms is well known.
http://www.tkcustom.com

10-Ring Precision is another.
http://www.tenring.com/moon-clip-conversions/

Here's a good read on it.
http://americanhandgunner.com/web-extra-the-rise-of-the-full-moon-clips-that-is/

I'm with the auto-pistol round camp.
They flat out work much better then rimmed revolver conversions.

1. The moon clips are thicker steel and not as easily flexed or bent.
2. The auto cartridges have a deeper extractor rim cut so the clip has room to self-align when chambering them.

rc

 

[Jim K]

If you are starting with a .38 Special or .357 revolver, the rationale for using .38 Short Colt escapes me. It is the same as .38 Special except shorter, and factory ammo is hard to get and about twice the cost of .38 Special because of limited sales.

You can use the .38 Special shell holder and sizing die, but you will need .38 Short Colt seating and crimping dies. Plus, the short length of the .38 SC makes it harder to reload than .38 Special.

In the police revolver days, the .38 Short and Long Colt rounds were sometimes used by recoil sensitive officers instead of .38 Special, but I assume that is not the case here since you can reload .38 Special to any power level you want.

Jim

 

[greyling22]

Korth showed a replacement cylinder for a Smith 686 that takes 9mm at shot show this year.

 

[Bill B.]

If you are starting with a .38 Special or .357 revolver, the rationale for using .38 Short Colt escapes me.

There are several National Ranked Shooters using these on the S&W 8 Times because the short case is faster to reload using moon clips. I think I have read they are using a 170 grain bullet in it to make the power factor. The shorter the case the less jiggle factor ..... it's just a speed thing but it matters if that is what you are going for.

 

[Jim Watson]

The S&W 929 8x9mm seems to be the thing to have in USPSA Revolver these days.
If you want something a little handier, look at the 986 7x9mm.
Robar can blacken the nasty old stainless steel for you but the titanium cylinders will remain gray. I guess they could coat them black.

.38 Short Colt is a specialist round.
.38 Super is at present only available in conversions and improvising around .38 S&W sounds like more trouble than it is worth.

Pinnacle Guns does clip conversions.
A clip conversion for .357/.38 Spl/.38 SC is not expensive, but a makeover to handle 9mm is.
http://pinnaclehighperformance.com/cylinder-work/


I don't have any trouble loading powderpuff .45s with Bullseye. I load a 230 to 600 fps for IDPA ESP and to 700 fps for IDPA Rev-E. Recoil is negligible in a steel gun and might be bearable in your Airweight. It is sooty but will not gum up the works.
A M625 with the nasty old stainless steel blackened would probably work for you.

 

[C0untZer0]

I love my 929 !

 

[Esoteria]

Thanks for the info so far, guys. Lots of stuff to respond to:

@Drail Yes, the 45 ACP moon clips have been almost *ridiculously* easy to reload with. You bring up a good point that I should be careful not to go too far in the other direction with e.g. a thinner moon clip.

@rcmodel Fair point -- sounds like I shouldn't be too quick to give up on 9mm just because 38 SC would be a short enough cartridge to reload quickly. Looked at TK Custom. Seems like a lot of flexibility in what he can convert.

@Jim K as Bill B. mentioned, it's mainly cartridge length that I'm concerned with. Not only does the length contribute to rounds "missing" chambers, but I found out pretty quick that with larger hands I was fumbling over the grip and frame of the gun with longer rounds, too. There's just more room to work with for my hands and less room to "miss" for the rounds.

@greyling22 Looks like that's a non-moon clip variety though.

@Jim Watson (and C0untZer0)
The 929 was on my radar before. I felt it was too big, and way too stainless. The 986 is a fair sight closer to what I'm looking for. I may be able to tolerate the stainless finish due to the kind of wonky overall design and grey cylinder. (My main beef with stainless is just that it feels "showy") Thanks for pointing me at Robar. I'd looked at it once before but kind of forgot about it. Looks like $145 for blackening, which isn't too bad.

As for the light loads for .45, I started with Bullseye at 4.0 grains, which pushes a 200gr out at 710 FPS. Recoil in the 325 is certainly tolerable, but enough to make just 50 rounds or so feel like a bit of a chore. As I go down below 4 grains, I get a lot more crap left over, and even at 4 there's enough soot that falls out when ejecting the clip that it's annoying. Again, it's not really a problem with the gun, it's a problem with what I'm trying to do with it.

The 625 blackened is a really good suggestion as well. Ironically with the gun being a little cheaper and the cost of getting the work done, I'd probably end up at about the same cost as the 325. However, I'm a little worried that the extra 11 ounces wouldn't be enough to get me into the recoil territory I want to be at, but it probably would....

In case anyone's still reading, dumb question: Is there such a thing as a weight lug for the picatinny rail? That would be an almost comically simple (temporary) solution to my problem. Too bad I don't have a milling machine.

 

[Jim Watson]

Wichita makes a heavy rib that slides over the barrel and underlug of a regular full lug S&W. All they show is a picture, you would have to call for the actual weight and price.
http://www.wichitaarms.com/Products/shootingassc.asp

I have not seen a weight for a Picatinny rail but you could assemble one with a regular Weaver scope ring and a piece of 1" bar stock. It wouldn't be pretty, but it would hold the gun down.

I am loading as low as 3.1 grains of Bullseye for .45 Minor and 3.8 for Rev-E with 230 grain bullets.

 

[C0untZer0]

According to Dan Brown, Czechpoint USA should have the 3" 9mm Alfa Proj pistols by May of this year - the model 9231.

 

[Esoteria]

Thanks, guys. Update below.

@Jim Watson
I'm going to go down to the 3.2~3.4 grain range on my next batch, and just plan to tolerate the soot and flakes. It should be a viable stopgap while I work out the long-term solution (different gun). Thanks as always for your input and expertise.
That Wichita slab weight looks like it could be pretty cool. Reminds me of EWK's ultra-heavy barrel shroud for Dan Wessons.

@C0untZer0
Yeah, but he said January 2016 as of last August, so while I believe they're trying, I'm only setting myself up for disappointment if I count on that.

===

So I contacted Tom at TK Custom asking about Dan Wesson cylinders, and he said he can modify them for clips and/or rechamber for 9mm or .38 super.
Honestly this is now my leading option, because I already know I like the DW model 15-2, and they're still relatively inexpensive. I'm just left to (1) actually acquire another one and (2) decide which service to have done. Since I'm looking for additional input on this, I decided to open a new thread asking directly.

 

[Morrey]

Not trying to be a thread hijacker, just a question about a 9mm revolver. I load lots of 9mm and shoot autos. Wife is more revolver oriented, but is trigger savvy. In other words, my auto pistols with quality aftermarket triggers have spoiled her.

Is there a revolver in 9mm w/moon clips that has a really nice trigger? Looking for a carry size that fits in her pocketbook reasonable size and weight.

Thanks!!

 

[rcmodel]

No, not 'nice' like a auto pistol.

All revolvers are nicer then most autos when cocked and fired single-action.
Not so much when fired double-action.

rc

 

[StrawHat]

Esoteria,

So a lightweight revolver did not work for you. Think about the Model 22-4, the 1917 and a host of other blued steel S&W revolvers chambered in 45 ACP. The extra weight dampens recoil nicely.

Some of mine.

Top to bottom;

Model 25-2
Model 22-4
1917
Model 28-2 converted to 45 ACP

Lots of choices.

Kevin

 

[MrBorland]

Honestly, if this is going to be a range gun, I'd recommend having your DW cut for moons by TK, and loading Short Colt rounds. For one thing, the .357 bullet would be sized appropriately for the barrel that's on the gun (whereas 9mm and .38Super bullets are a hair smaller), and with no other mods to the cylinder, you retain the ability to shoot .38spl/.357mags with or without moons.

Loading SC is pretty straightforward - I use .38 bullets, a .38spl sizing die, and 9mm dies for the rest.

 

[TimSr]

I'll admit this thread is on a plane that I don't comprehend, but if case length is the issue, might a .380 revolver be a possible solution? I think Ruger has one.

 

[Old Fuff]

I had the same thought, but the revolver you (and I) have in mind is made by Taurus, not Ruger I believe.

 

[walnut1704]

FYI the .38 Short Colt die set I have from Lee has a .38/.357 sizer, a .38 S&W expander die, and a .38 ACP seating die. Not sure if it has a non-.38 S&W expander plug in it. I'd have to go measure it.