Why were subcompact single stack 9mm not available earlier?

[JellyJar]

Hello

Below is a link to a Forgotten Weapons video about the ASP custom made single stack 9mm subcompact handgun:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4trmOFxuJw0

My question is; why is it that super small 9mm handguns were not made many years ago and only started to become available for the most part in the last 20 years or so? Were there technical problems or were there just no market for such handguns in the past?

Thanks

JJ

 

[JohnBiltz]

There used to be a lot of single stack 9mm handguns of various sizes. There were more single stacks then double stacks. Beretta made a good one I know. At the time Americans were carrying revolvers.

A few points.
Before the 80s, pistols were not as reliable as they are today. They were not designed to process hollow points. So when using hollow points they were even more unreliable.

9mm came to everyone's attention with the wonder 9s. They were led by the Sig 226 and Beretta 92. Glock came in a few years later. The whole point with them were firepower. Lots of ammo, the more ammo the better. Not exactly a single stack's strong point.

Somewhere in there they put points on imports and a lot of guns, particularly small guns went away.

 

[blahpony]

I imagine that the growth of legal concealed carry has pushed the demand for small concealable handguns.

 

[win71]

I think this is true

I imagine that the growth of legal concealed carry has pushed the demand for small concealable handguns.

In the early 70's there must have been some sort of compact 9m/m. I did not know of them. I settled for a .380 PPKS as an ankle/pocket back-up weapon. Some around me carried a single stack .45 allegedly called "compact" manufactured by Star. I was suspect of the quality and stayed with the PPKS. I still have it however around 1986 I vacillated to a double stack compact S&W 469. I still have it. 40 years ago I bought and eventually traded off a S&W 39. Single stack 9m/m. Big mistake on my part.

 

[C0untZer0]

I tried a few designs in the 80s. I purchased a sub-compact from some Israeli company that did not work and I tried the Inratec CAT-9 which also didn't work.

My HK P7M8 was small but it was heavy. There was the 3rd gen Smith 3913 & 3914.

There have been quite a few tiny 9mm design that have gone by the wayside, (like the Microtech Archangel),

I think it took some time and quite a bit of engineering know-how to get it right. Pistols like the Rohrbaugh R9, Kimber Solo and Kahr PM9 / CM9 push the form factor for 9mm right to the limit.



.

 

[Edarnold]

As far as early 9x19 autos being 'unreliable' with hollow point ammunition, I would have to respectfully disagree. I owned and extensively shot an S&W Model 39-2, serial range 7xxx, purchased in 1967. It digested factory FMJ and military surplus, and my handloads with the 90gr SuperVel HP, as well as my own 100gr swaged half-jacket SP, without a bobble. That's zero malfunctions over thousands of rounds. I think that qualifies as reliable. The choice of this Model 39 as the basis for the ASP compact was a good one, though reducing the slide mass to save length and weight probably did not help reliability.
Comparing today's sub-compact 9x19s, where everything is sacrificed to shave off millimeters and ounces for the tiny-gun market, against the service sized pistols of the previous decades, is absurd. The sub-compact 9x19 market, in my opinion, exists because manufacturers see an opportunity to sell more guns to people who will seldom shoot them. Some shooters feel the need to go for extremes, like the .500 S&W, just to be the cool kid in their group. The search for the tiniest semi-auto is just the other extreme.

 

[420Stainless]

It may just be that the market conditions weren't right, or at least that the manufacturers didn't think they were and so they didn't bother trying. At least in the U.S., the common perception of value with the 9mm was a significant increase in capacity. I never warmed up to the nine due to the large grip diameter of all the double stacks. Once the subcompacts finally came around, it was a period of my life when I couldn't afford to buy one. When I could finally, they had a .45 that was just a smidgen larger and so I bought it since I already had reloading dies and components. Still don't mind the idea of an MK9 or PM9 someday though. I don't doubt that there were also some technical challenges with the higher pressure 9mm that slowed down development along the way.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

I remember back when people were buying pocket .22's .25's .380's and derringers.

The belief was common that they were not able to hit the broad side of a barn.

Many people who tried them could not shoot them well and the inherent accuracy belief stuck.

Word of mouth was the internet and tv never had shows that covered the pocket pistols/ belly guns as they were commonly called.

To me that's the main reason why they were never a popular production pistol.

Second reason is that a flood of cheap subcompact pistols onto the market and many drew conclusions that they were too small to be reliable. Again the internet was word of mouth and opinions often were based on misinformation or personal experience then applied to the whole lot.

 

[Pilot]

Also, 9MM defensive ammo has improved greatly over the past ten years.

 

[bannockburn]

JellyJar

Back in the day there were a few compact 9mm. pistols but not any true sub-compact designs. Guns like the Star BM and BKS were available as well as customized S&W Model 39s offered by ASP and Devel. Eventually S&W came out with their own versions of a compact single and double stack pistol based on the Model 39 and Model 59. Probably the biggest incentive for smaller, more compact 9mm.s has come from so many states having instituted concealed carry laws which has brought so a lot of new designs to the marketplace.

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

I believe it had to do with the condition of the market/mindset of people more than anything. It also had to do with carry laws at the time. CCW is a lot more popular and more widely accepted these days. Back then more people felt safe than we do now.

 

[justin22885]

single stack everything went very unpopular for quite a while, certain 45acp pistols with single stack mags were more tolerated because of the illusion that they are more powerful.. have more "stopping power" which doesnt even exist, and unlike 45acp, 9mm is far more comfortable in a single stack for a broader spectrum of people, so if youre carrying a 9, why not carry 17 of them?

ive really been thinking about getting a zastava M88 which is a single stack compact tokarev for conceal carry

 

[HexHead]

Someone touched on it above, but I'd think a main reason were the various gun control acts resulting in "sporting purposes" and the "points system" for importing handguns.

It took companies like Glock, Sig, Taurus and Beretta all opening manufacturing facilities here.

 

[Spats McGee]

I'm going to go with "market conditions related to concealed carry." I suspect that there were plenty of people carrying concealed handguns 30 years ago. I also suspect that doing so was of dubious legality in most places. I haven't done a state-to-state survey, but Arkansas got concealed carry licenses in 1995, IIRC. Once a state openly adopts a law that allows concealed carry, in whatever form, it becomes much more (socially) acceptable to walk into your friendly neighborhood LGS and say, "I need a gun that I can carry concealed." If the state openly allows concealed carry, the prospective buyer no longer has to worry about someone at the LGS turning him in to law enforcement. That leads to higher demand, more competition, etc.

 

[Tirod]

Before the introduction of the polymer pistol, most LEO's and many civilians use revolvers, and .38 was considered the norm. A 6 shot snub nosed was very concealable and did the job. Why go looking for a 9mm single stack that was likely foreign made and certain operated in a completely different manner with SA and safety?

Once the market started moving in that direction it was Kahr who offered a 9mm single stack early in the game - because he couldn't find any to suit - and just like Glock, he gave it a DA style trigger action that wasn't any different than what most Americans were already used to from revolvers.

Early on at the time of the Devel Asp Detonics offered the Pocket Pal in 9mm and it sold briskly for as long as it was on the market. All stainless and delayed blowback, it was heavy to carry and a bit sharp on recoil. A poly Kahr does the job a lot better.

There was little demand for them overall, so 9mm single stacks just weren't on the market. Once CCW gained ground the market accelerated and the major makers gave it more interest with compact models of their service guns designed to sell as off duty or backup for LEO's. Nonetheless Kahr is the time stamp when 9mm single stacks began to get noticed, simply because it met a market need exactly when it was developing. Sales took off and the company has beaten the odds of 95% of American businesses by staying at it long after it's first ten years.

Meanwhile all the earlier pioneers have bit the dust - M43 Firestar, Pocket Pal, etc. The most famous? The HK P7, which is now a highly valued collector gun. For all it's complication and expense vs a typical Browning based auto pistol, tho, not so much. Price is very much a factor and polymer delivers.

 

[jrdolall]

I didn't need one. I carried a Colt Trooper .357 from 1980 until 1996. Usually it was concealed...poorly. Like stuck in my belt when I went into a store.

"Dubious Legality" may be an understatement. 30 years ago, in Rural Alabama, it really didn't matter. I probably was pulled over by an LEO at least 20 times and NEVER did one ask if there was a weapon in the car. There were no "anti gun" movements that I ever saw. Gang activity was limited to inner cities of Birmingham and Mobile. I saw my first Walmart in Tuscaloosa in 1982. Had my first "delivery" pizza in 1981.

 

[strambo]

I saw it as the convergence of 2 major forces in the marketplace that coincided. The increased popularity and expansion of shall issue CCW permits (and Const. Carry), along with the AWB of 94 restricting capacity to 10rds.

With increased carry gun demand and it not making sense to carry a big wonder-nine neutered to 10, or a snub at half the legal limit, compact 9s and 40s filled the gap in the marketplace. I got a Kahr K9 during this period and it is a great carry gun.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Can't overstate how much Americans preferred revolvers over automatics until the wonder 9s came out. You might own a 1911 particularly if you were a vet but other than that it was considered to be suicidal to have one of them foreign jamomatics. S&W started to make inroads with the 39s and then the 59s. In 1982 when I bought my first handgun the only question in my mind was which .357 I was getting. Never even thought about an automatic. 5 years later I thought a Sig 226 was as good as handguns got.

 

[MICHAEL T]

I have a single stack 9mm made 1951 Called a Colt Commander .
lite weight 1911 What's not to like. The Commander and I believe the S&W 39 were both made when Army was looking to replace the 45 1911 . Which they did many years later with that over size ugly Beretta