Why Wilson Combat included NORINCO 1911 in list of ...

[BCRider]

Up this way Norinco guns are still imported and the 1911's they produce are still available for cheap... like $350'ish to $375'ish.

Oddly enough the prevailing opinion of them is split into two camps. Those that think they are a great deal with or without some minor internal tuning and those that think they are "commie crap" and will self destruct within less than 100 rounds.

One of our more well known gunsmiths up here brings in Norinco 1911s and does a full meal deal on the tuning which includes peening the slide and frame for a tighter "match" fit and cleaning and stoning the action to produce a nice crisp 4lb trigger pull with little to no detectable creep. For this he tacks on another $150 to the price. These Armco tuned Norcs are highly respected by the owners and when they do show up for sale the price is consistently over $400.

In one of my local gun clubs where we shoot IDPA there's a group of friends that one day decided to "even the odds". All 6 or so of them bought dead stock Norinco 1911's and shoot them at special times when they are all together in our monthly matches. The guy with the lowest score has to buy brunch for the rest the next weekend. They are all using box stock guns with no tuning according to their gentlemans' agreement. They all shoot nicely and reliably.

Just thought you'd enjoy a peak at the other side of the coin where these guns are still available.

 

[1911Tuner]

BCRider...That's been my experience with'em. You'll always find the occasional example that would serve better as a paperweight. Most of'em do just fine.

 

[Skylerbone]

Getting back to the OP, I would think what any shop is willing to work on is greatly influenced by frame specs. Having to constantly adjust machinery or play around with multiple parts combinations is time wasted. Knowing house parts of known quality will fit without issue can be invaluable.

With that in mind, Norinco it seems was getting a number of things right. I wouldn't pay more than the price of a new with lifetime warranty Springfield but that's a whole other question.

 

[CCW1911]

This is kind of a hell i was there for me. The reason Wilson and a few others added the Norinco to the list of pistols they would build on is simple. Colts were hard to get and were getting more expensive at the time, and they had problems with over beveled slide locking lugs which made it impossible to build a good custom gun. It didn't hurt that you could buy a Norinco for $200 or less and since all you were using was the frame and slide the small part quality didn't matter. Also Colt front straps started getting thin and off center making checkering impossible or more difficult, Norinco's had a nice thick front strap.

All this lead to the myth that the Norinco was somehow a superior pistol to build a custom on. They were ok but when you spend a bunch of money on one you still have a expensive Norinco.

Colt got back on track and Caspian and others started making some good frames and slides so the Norinco would've gone back to it's normal status whether they quit importing them or not.

There are plenty of good pistols out there built on Norincos, I built some myself. But to say they are superior I can't agree on.

 

[Levan9X19]

ССW1911, thanx a lot for such a detailed reply! Thanx every one for such an interesting discussion

 

[hq]

All this lead to the myth that the Norinco was somehow a superior pistol to build a custom on. They were ok but when you spend a bunch of money on one you still have a expensive Norinco.

I like to think that no matter what you build a custom gun on, you have a custom gun instead of what you started with. Sometimes I sand the sides of the slide flat for a clean no-brand look, or to have the whole slide engraved, but after a gun is heavily modified it really bears little resemblance to whatever the brand/model originally was.

When I modify Colts, for example, I usually try to keep them as stock (looking) as possible, improving only things like trigger pull, frame/slide/barrel fit and maybe some other minor details. When I want to go crazy with mods, I get a Norinco because they have all the right basic qualities, they're dirt cheap and there's no collector value to be lost. Resale value doesn't matter that much either, a heavily modified gun is rarely if ever a hot seller unless it's been modified by a big-name gunsmith or shop.

 

[1911Tuner]

I don't think that they're superior to a properly made Colt, Caspian, Springfield, etc. slide and frame. At least not as far as the specs go. Where they do seem to have an edge over the others is that they're as tough as a chunk of pig iron, which is in large part why they're hard to machine. This would...IMO...make them more durable over the long haul for a pistol put to hard use. Of course, a half-million rounds as opposed to 450,000 is probably moot. The average shooter won't burn up enough ammo in either for it to be of any practical consequence.

The same goes for the internals. It's a little like an Italian SAA clone in that respect. If you subject it to the rigors of CAS, it'll need a few mods to extend its service life and tune-up schedule. The casual shooter who doesn't slam the hammer back for rapid fire won't likely have a problem.

 

[rellascout]

If we here in the US could still get a Nork for $300 to $350 I would recommend them over the RIA and other lower end GIs but since the importation ban I have not seen a good one for under $450. At that price they are still a decent value but again IMHO when they start to climb over $500 I look to other guns.

I agree 100% with hq that when you customize a gun you are creating or should be creating a one of a kind gun which suits your needs and should look the way you want it to. That ablity is one of the biggest upsides to the 1911 platform but you almost never get your money out of the gun. Even with the big name smiths you will loose 20% to 30% of what you have in the gun after customization.

 

[1911Tuner]

you almost never get your money out of the gun. Even with the big name smiths you will loose 20% to 30% of what you have in the gun after customization.

That's a fact. I get the impression that some people believe their Norinco/RIA or whatever magically appreciates in value 1,000% just because one of the well-known smiths actually toughed it with his hands...like "Hitler's Luger" or "Wyatt Earp's Buntline Special."

Buy one. Either shoot it as is or spend money on it making it uniquely you...but don't expect that it'll be anything more than it is.

 

[19112XS]

It is hype that pushes these used $300 pistols into the $550 to $600 range these days.

Maybe demand vs. supply and the shrinking buying power of the dollar also come into play.

Your buddy had issues with 33% of the ones he owned but I guess we should ignore that fact. LOL

Less than 10% actually.


The "Rehab Nork" was out of spec before Bubba tried to "fix" it. The result was a paperweight. I do thank Tuner for bringing it back to life. The moral is; always check feed ramps very, very carefully before purchase!

Since then it's eaten the hooks from one new (Nork) hammer (7500+ rounds) and a second used hammer of unknown lineage (750 or so rounds.) The current one has 500+ and shows normal wear.

Of the other Norks, most still have Nork internals, with the exception of a coupleathree Kart and Springfield Barrels. Reliability is great and accuracy ranges from 1"-3.5" at 12 yds.

Just my experience.

YMMV

 

[cyclopsshooter]

When looking at new in box examples, how do you tell an early one from a later one? Import mark location?

 

[1911Tuner]

The "Rehab Nork" was out of spec before Bubba tried to "fix" it. The result was a paperweight.

Whew! That's the pistol that nearly weaned me from makin' offers to "See what I can do with it."

At one point in the rehab, if I coulda found Bubba, I'd have probably done him a little violence. At the very least, I'd have beat all his fingers flat with a ball-peen hammer to keep him from workin' on another pistol.

When looking at new in box examples, how do you tell an early one from a later one? Import mark location?

The quickest way is to check the barrel's vertical engagement. Every one of'em had barrel fit problems in that axis, and most of those also had excessive headspace and barrel play front to rear, which accelerated the lug deformation. Some of those pistols would beat the lugs out within a hundred rounds. It's so obvious that if you know what to look for, you don't even need a caliper to measure it. You can see it by slowly cycling the slide and watching how far the barrel moves up when it goes to battery. I've run into a couple that had as little as .020 inch. The Nork from Hell was one of'em. On the up side, there aren't many of those in the pipeline. Maybe 10% of the total.

On all other points, the bad ones are still salvageable, but it takes a hard-fit barrel and radical rail lowering to bring the slide closer to the slidestop centerline. Unless you can do the work yourself, I wouldn't give more than 150-200 bucks for one. The cost to bring it up to spec would make it a bad investment.

 

[1911Tuner]

Since then it's eaten the hooks from one new (Nork) hammer (7500+ rounds) and a second used hammer of unknown lineage (750 or so rounds.)

That's something that I meant to touch bases on with you. I figured out what happened to the original hammer after a close examination. I had a friend check it with a Rockwell tester, and it's a little on the soft side...but not enough to have been the sole cause.

I dummied it up in one of my Norincos...and it jumped out at me. Apparently, Bubba learned to smif from reading Ken Hallock's little white book.

The hammer face had been recontoured to get the hammer very close to the sear so it wouldn't drop so far when the slide releases it. The much harder slide wore the face of the softer hammer a few thousandths...and when it reached a certain point...the hammer started to fall directly back onto the sear after it bounces off the grip safety tang...and it beat the hooks to gobbets. The sear also suffered.

Not sure what happened to the other hammer. I haven't had a chance to look at it and try to figure it out. It may have just been a soft one that got past'em, and the harder aftermarket sear that I installed wore the hooks out in quick-time.

I know two things for sure. I don't wanna see that flippin' Nork again...and I really wanna have a word of prayer with Bubba.

 

[CCW1911]

IIRC the earlier Norinco's had large letters on the slide, I've heard that if any these would be the ones that might have some collector value some day, maybe in a few hundred years.

It's been my experience that with the lower priced guns the small parts usually suffer the most. So if the frame and slide are usable many times you need to replace the small parts. It's been a few years since I've worked on Norincos myself but it seems they were pretty unpredictable as to what you had to work with. Like Tuner said you might get one with dimensional problems but if you were doing slide to frame tightening and match barrel fit that would be taken care of as long as you could move the metal far enough. LOL

 

[1911Tuner]

if you were doing slide to frame tightening and match barrel fit that would be taken care of as long as you could move the metal far enough.

On the one described above, and another one that I did 5 years ago, I had to collapse the ways and cut the floor to get the way wide enough to get the slide onto the frame...lowering it a total of .020 inch. Additionally...on the first one...I had to create a little clearance between the top of the frame and the center fail in the slide. It's pretty labor intensive. Paying someone to do it would push the cost way above what the pistol is worth.

 

[19112XS]

The hammer face had been recontoured to get the hammer very close to the sear so it wouldn't drop so far when the slide releases it.

Bubba went to a lot of trouble to show his ignorance. What did he hope to gain?

It may have just been a soft one that got past'em, and the harder aftermarket sear that I installed wore the hooks out in quick-time.

I dunno. I did misremember my usage of this second hammer. It started following the slide between 500-600 rounds and was replaced around 650.

Now this pistol is running like a sewing machine, eating everything given. It's so reliable that I practice with a lot and am very familiar with it. Accuracy is very good and would be better if I did my part better.

 

[1911Tuner]

Bubba went to a lot of trouble to show his ignorance. What did he hope to gain?

That was one of Hallock's little tricks to keep the hammer closer to the sear when the slide was holding it off...to keep it from falling so far back to the sear when it runs forward. The purpose is to preserve a finely-honed sear crown. Properly done...and before any wear lets it fall straight to the sear...it does tend to do that, but is completely unnecessary. Ken didn't understand that the slide doesn't drop the hammer abruptly. I lowers it gradually. Quickly, but gradually...and even more gradually with a small radius on the firing pin stop.

Why the guy thought it was necessary on a pistol that hadn't been trigger jobbed is a mystery...but people have done worse thing because of something that they've read. Like...polishing feed ramps with Dremels, for instance.

Now this pistol is running like a sewing machine, eating everything given.

It's whut Ah dew, cousin. It's whut Ah dew.