Just picked up a Norinco/Wilson Combat...

[270Win]

Hey all,

Thought I'd augment my wonderful 9mm CZ-75B with a good .45; at my favorite gun shop today I looked over the CZ-97 (liked it), the Sig P-220 (liked it a lot), the H&K (worst fit to my hand, by very nice otherwise), and a few Kimbers.

Then, in the very corner of the case, I spotted two Norinco 1911A1s, resting on blue nylon Wilson Combat bags. Sure enough, the sales ticket, under "other," read: Wilson Combat Pkg.

One had a blued frame with a parkerized slide, the one I chose had both frame and slide parkered. The parkering looks brand new. I've never owned a parkerized finish before, so this COULD technically be the ArmorTuff finish, I have no idea. It's a non-glossy matte-ish finish.

I'm not sure exactly what "Wilson Combart Pkg" means, but the trigger, sights, hammer and barrel were definitely not original. The grips, grip safety and ejector looked non-original as well, but I'm not familiar enough to say. Trigger pull was incredibly crisp and light. Came with one stainless Wilson Combat magazine.

Got it for a hair over $500. Can anyone tell me a little about the Wilson Combat treatment? I know they make just about every 1911 accessory there is, but is there a "standard" package? There was no paperwork provided, unfortunately. However, the only serial number is the Wilson one, right below the Wilson Combat script.

It was a great fit for me, and I really took it right away. Anything I can learn would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance.

 

[XavierBreath]

Wilson Combat will still perform bespoke custom work, including complete guns. Norinco 1911s are prime candidates for custom work, an excellent platform for modifications. At $500, you no doubt got a great deal. You should be able to contact Wilson Combat with the serial and find out everything that was done.

But........................

 

[bluecowdawg]

I am sure you got a great pistol with wilson parts but in their 2006 catolog it says they will build on customer supplied guns but only lists ,Colt.Springfield,Kimber and S&W as models that they will work on.So i would think that someone else built that pistol up with Wilson parts. Still sounds like a very good deal though.

 

[45shooter]

Wilsom Combat used to list Norinco 1911 as one of the pistol they would build on. $500 is a great deal on the pistol. I would have jumped on it.

 

[Hazzard]

Man I wish I hadn't traded my Norinco years ago. One of the ones on the growing list of regrets. Paid $169.00 for it out the door.

 

[270Win]

XavierBreath,

Thanks to Maryland's wonderful laws, I have a whole 7 days to wait until I can actually get my hands on it. But don't worry, I will post pictures!

Bluecowdawg,

Norinco is still supported:

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/faq_handgun.htm

 

[270Win]

Update (but still no pictures):

Emailed Wilson Combat, and they were able to confirm it does seem to be a Wilson Combat 1911 done on a Norinco frame, because of the location and appearance and numerical validity of the serial number and script/logo... but they are unable to research the records of specific pistols, especially older ones, as they think this one is.

However, the email was very prompt (within 9 hours!), and the author said if he could see the pistol, he could likely identify what it was and what was done.

 

[Silent Bob]

I called Wilson Combat about a year or so ago and asked them if they still worked on Norincos, the answer was yes, they just didn't list them on the work order sheet because the supply of Norincos (especially unmodded ones) has all but dried up.

 

[bluecowdawg]

o.k. sorry

wasnt trying to be a know it all,and believe me i'm not(just ask my wife ),but Wilson does'nt list them in their mail order catolog that i have . I was just trying to be helpful.

 

[robertbank]

Man you got a buy and them some. Post that on the 1911 ORg forum and you will have guys falling all over the place to see a picture of the gun. I'm one of them. We can still get Norincos up here, NIB $325Cd. Great platforms for custom gun works. I bought a Para SSP so I can shoot south of the 49th. Crossing the line with a Norinco is a no, no now.

Take Care

Bob

 

[270Win]

Ok, picked it up today. Will post pictures later when I find some batteries for the camera. Here's what I noticed: the serial number is consistant with standard Norinco numbers; the Wilson Combat script is just above it on the right side of the frame. The sights appear to be Meprolight MH3. The barrel is the original Norinco, despite what I originally thought - has the last four digits of the serial number electropenciled on, which seems consistant with what I've read about Norincos. Trigger is not stock. I think the grip safety and main spring housing are not original; apparently "stock" Norinco's have lanyard loops on the MSH, but not here. Unsure about hammer. Magwell is the free-fall design, unsure if this is standard Norinco issue or not. Came with one stainless Wilson Combat mag.

Again, will post pictures.

Email to Wilson was extremely unhelpful. Apparently they do NOT archive their past work, via serial numbers or any other method. Without pictures, they have no idea. I plan on sending them pictures too.

What it appears is that someone bought a Norinco, and shipped it to Wilson to have selected parts put on...? I'm not sure if Wilson ever offered/installed the MH3 sights, etc. ... so it's hard to say. I can't imagine how else the Wilson Combat script got on there, along with the various parts.

Thanks again for any info you guys can provide!

 

[robertbank]

The new mil-spec Norincos do not come with a landyard loop and I have seen US NOrks without them. Has the MSH got deep vertical line serations in it or is it checkered. The New mil-spec guns are arched and have deep vertical serations. The US Norks have small left hand only GI safeties. The new ones we get have a larger safety.

Looking forward to the pics

Take Care


Bpb

 

[270Win]

Ok, here are the pics! :

The slight blemishes and blotches are leftover oil after I field-stripped it and cleaned the heck out of it; that's what you're seeing in the picture taken from behind.

 

[Shawn M.]

Looks great. I'll bet it shoots like a champ too. So, how much you wanna' sell it for?

 

[robertbank]

270Win

Visually here is what I can see that have been changed out:

1. Sights
2. Trigger
3. Safety
4. Extractor unless the pics don't show the colouring right. Should be a plum colour, if not they changed it out, which is a shame as the Norinco extractors are spring steel.
5. Firing Pin Stop and likely the firing pin
6. Barrel Bushing
7. The gun appears to have been completely refinished

The MSH, Grips, Grip Safety, Slide Stop and hammerr appear to be stock. Looks like to me who ever had the work done wanted the gun to remain Mil-Spec in appearance with some notable upgrades. You have a very nice pistol there and you got it for a song.

Norinco barrels are excellent and I suspect Wilson would have insured a proper fit including making sure the barrel link was properly sized etc.

As I mentioned earlier I have three Norincos and they are the most reliable 1911's I have owned with no issues at all. Guns are very accurate and my customized Norinco is as good a 1911 as you can get as a shooter.

Congratulations

Bob

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

Pretty sweet pistol buddy! Tell us how it shoots.

 

[robertbank]

Here is a commentary from an Engineer from Ottawa and a friend of mine regarding steel in the Norinco 1911's. Interesting read and should you ever here comments about cheap Norincos.

"Allright, well let me first start by explaining a few things about steel in general, including Ordnance grades of steel. Hardness does not necessarily equate to brittleness, that is a function of heat treating and alloy. Even softer steels can crack and be brittle, it's a matter of how the internal stresses are relieved, or not, by annealing and hardening processes, as well as upon carbon on other constituent elements found in the steel.

Also should mention, I'm comparing apples to apples, so only the CroMo Colt is being compared to the CroMo Norinco here. The stainless guns have their own quirks (like spalling problems, corrosion resistance benefits, etc.)

In layman's terms, the more important characteristics to crafting firearms is the toughness of the steel and modulous of elasticity of the steel. You want steel that is ductile enough to flex at the microscopic level and return to its original shape but hard enough to have good wear resistance and, in higher end guns, be able to take and keep the desired finish without dinging up too easily.

Now if we want to talk about relative hardness of steels, Norincos are made from a different steel formulation than Colts are. Comparing Rockwell hardnesses really won't tell you much, but as a general observation, on average the Norincos are at least 30% harder on the surface than most other 1911's, including the Colt. This does not mean they are more brittle - it means that the alloy used to Make the Norincos (5100 tool steel*) results in a much harder surface when heat treated than does the Colt alloy (4140 Ordnance grade tool steel*).

*Although the exact alloy formulations are "industrial secrets", destructive testing done in the USA by the DCM (circa 1997) determined that Colt uses 4140 and the Chinese formulation used in 1911's and M14S receivers is an exact match to AISI 5100 series steel.

Perhaps this is the time to mention something else about Colts. Colt does not use the same alloy today it used in WW2 and earlier. In WW1, the guns were not even given what we think of today as "heat treating". Those older guns were only spot-treated at high stress areas and today have a rather high incidence of slide cracking using full factory loads due to a number of factors, including metal fatigue, crack propagation, creep, etc. coupled with the fact that vast portions of the slide and frame have no treatment at all. That being said, the steel is very ductile and in the event of failure, it should just bend and crack - not fracture like a grenade. A good thing, but at the same time - these babies should be collected and admired more than turned into a range marathon pistol!

I could get further into heat treating, including annealing, case hardening, gas carburizing, cyanide dips, etc. and the resulting pearlitic and/or martensitic grain structures, but frankly, unless you work in a foundry or have a mechanical engineering degree and understanding of materials science, it would be way too far over everyone's head so I'll try to keep this explanation understandable for the average fellow

Now for a short note on Chinese steel "quality". The Chinese are as advanced as we are in Steel production. Is Chicom steel of poorer quality on average on a gross domestic production basis? Yes, absolutely. This is because the majority of China's manufacturing is devoted to the Wal-Marts of the world at a very low price point, so cheaper steels are generally produced and used for those products. The steel used in their weapons, however, is every bit as up to snuff as North American steel is.

So now we get into the 5100 alloy Norinco 1911 in particular. 5100 is an EXCELLENT receiver material. It hardens very well on the surface but maintains an adequately ductile core. This gives great wear resistance and great resistance to plastic deformation (deformation that causes the parts to permanently deform or warp). The one achilles heel to 5100 series alloys is that they are notoriously hard to machine. Norinco, I suspect, machines their parts with carbide cutters prior to heat treating. On a finished gun the only way you're going to cut it with HSS mill bits is if you spot-anneal the steel with a torch first. Most smiths have to buy carbide mill bits to work the steel, and even then there's a very high tool wear rate. This is probably why so few smiths will do Novak cuts to a Norinco slide - they probably only have HSS tooling!

5100 alloy is, most probably, the alloy most manufacturers WOULD chose to build receivers if tool bits were cheap and labor costs were low. It really does have better end-product properties than 4140 steel does, and it's also easier to smelt at the steel mill and forges beautifully. Virtually all Cro-Mo guns made in the west that aren't cast, however, are made of 4140 or other 4100 series alloys. 4140 is an entirely adequate steel for use in guns, it also wears tools at a much slower rate and can still be machined easily after hardening. The Chinese are fortunate in that they make many of the tool steel bits on the market (cheap supply) and lobor costs are very low. This makes 5100 steel actually cheaper for them to use b/c of the lower costs associated with making the steel stock."

 

[270Win]

First off, thanks to all of you who posted with information and good wishes; they're both very much appreciated.

I wanted to let you know that I heard back from Wilson Combat with a definitive answer: it IS one of theirs. However, it's not one of their product line, sold-as-new (CQB, Tactical, etc.)... but instead a gun that an individual sent to them to upgrade. They identified exactly what had been done: sights, trigger job, barrel, barrel bushing, safety, mag well and mags, complete refinishing. The amount of work done qualified it as a Wilson Combat gun, hence the script logo.

Will post targets once the range re-opens; it's Cowboy Action Shoot weekend here.

 

[XavierBreath]

I heard back from Wilson Combat with a definitive answer: it IS one of theirs.

Cool beans! You did good! You got a Wilson Combat gun for $500. I'd order a set of Wilson grips for it and call it a day.