Why would a venue ban XM193??

[Detritus]

Lately I've been looking into/for the various matches in my general area, specifically 2-gun or some other any form of run and gun with a rifle involved. and a little while back I came across a range hold such matches that not only bans XM855, Steel Tip, TAC-X (I assume that's the Barnes copper solids), Armor Piercing, and Tracers on their steel (fully understandable), but also XM193 and variant or two by name.

as stated I understand why XM855, other "AP", and anything else known to tear the living crap out of steel would be on the no-no list. but XM193 is a "normal" gilding metal cup and lead core FMJ right?
am I missing something here?

 

[grampajack]

That's a mystery to me. BTW, X-TAC is rebranded M855, so that makes sense. My best guess is they don't realize M193 is just plain old ball ammo.

 

[Detritus]

That's a mystery to me. BTW, X-TAC is rebranded M855, so that makes sense. My best guess is they don't realize M193 is just plain old ball ammo.

ah, I figured it was a typo and they meant they didn't want anything with a Barnes all-copper pill smacking their steel.

Oh and the range owner is perfectly aware that M193 is regular ball, what the website says is that the MV is too high (over 3100fps) and dimples his plates. but he's one of only two venues that I've ever seen with this limitation, and the other time I saw it listed it was kind of obvious at the time they'd lifted that part of their range rules and restrictions from guy #1.

 

[grampajack]

ah, I figured it was a typo and they meant they didn't want anything with a Barnes all-copper pill smacking their steel.

Oh and the range owner is perfectly aware that M193 is regular ball, what the website says is that the MV is too high (over 3100fps) and dimples his plates. but he's one of only two venues that I've ever seen with this limitation, and the other time I saw it listed it was kind of obvious at the time they'd lifted that part of their range rules and restrictions from guy #1.

That makes sense and then again it doesn't. If it's hard on his plates, then fine, but velocity isn't the final factor in what's going to determine what's safe and what's not. A 40 grain v-max would have an even higher velocity. It sounds like to me he's just banning 5.56 in general. There would probably be far less confusion if he just stated that plainly.

 

[Detritus]

That makes sense and then again it doesn't. If it's hard on his plates, then fine, but velocity isn't the final factor in what's going to determine what's safe and what's not. A 40 grain v-max would have an even higher velocity. It sounds like to me he's just banning 5.56 in general. There would probably be far less confusion if he just stated that plainly.

Except he can't blanket ban .223/5.56 on his steel, or what seems to be his preferred customer base will crucify him...
The vast majority of the people I run into talking the place up probably don't own a semi-auto rifle that isn't an AR-15.

Yeah, like I said it's weird, bad thing is that even with the relatively high dues he's got going ($3-400 a year for a family) and this issue. unless the new place I just heard about has everything i need in one spot, i'll likely still wind up joining up there, on top of maintaining membership at my current (pistol centric) range.

 

[grampajack]

Except he can't blanket ban .223/5.56 on his steel, or what seems to be his preferred customer base will crucify him...
The vast majority of the people I run into talking the place up probably don't own a semi-auto rifle that isn't an AR-15.

Yeah, like I said it's weird, bad thing is that even with the relatively high dues he's got going ($3-400 a year for a family) and this issue. unless the new place I just heard about has everything i need in one spot, i'll likely still wind up joining up there, on top of maintaining membership at my current (pistol centric) range.

5.56 has a little more oomph than .223, but I don't see how he's going to enforce it. It's also kind of ridiculous because someone shooting .223 from a 24'' barrel is probably equivalent or better than 5.56 coming out of a 16'' barrel. I'm sure he has his reasons, but I don't think he really understands everything that's at play. If his targets can't handle M193 then he needs to dedicate them to a pistol range and get some rifle rated plates. He could also put the weaker plates out further and get some more robust ones for up close.

 

[Hoser]

Some say XM193 is hard on steel...

If you treat steel like a once in a lifetime purchase, then I get it.

If you treat steel targets like a consumable item, then you can let everyone play. We don't allow steel core on our steel due to the fire/sparking hazard, but all other flavors of ammo are allowed.

 

[Detritus]

Some say XM193 is hard on steel...

If you treat steel like a once in a lifetime purchase, then I get it.

If you treat steel targets like a consumable item, then you can let everyone play. We don't allow steel core on our steel due to the fire/sparking hazard, but all other flavors of ammo are allowed.

based on their website the range in question seems to be trying to split the difference, (lifetime Vs. consumable) and in my view is trying to stick the first (possibly random) person they catch shooting borderline proscribed ammo at steel for the replacement of said steel. there is actually an entry on the site along the lines of "if we judge that you dinged it, you're replacing it at current market value".

again to be clear, i'm not complaining i'm just trying to understand a written policy that for all intents bans use of affordable AR fodder, at a venue that HAS to be seeing a high use of AR15s in their classes and matches.

 

[Sunray]

"...dimples his plates..." Lots of ranges do not allow FMJ's for that very reason. Usually caused by rectal orifi damaging range facilities other than the plates when they're empting their toys as fast as they can.
A 40 grain V-Max will explode upon impact. An FMJ will not.
"...how he's going to enforce it..." Easy. Buy your ammo from me only or show me your ammo.
"...all-copper..." Copper is far less dense than any lead cored bullet.

 

[grampajack]

based on their website the range in question seems to be trying to split the difference, (lifetime Vs. consumable) and in my view is trying to stick the first (possibly random) person they catch shooting borderline proscribed ammo at steel for the replacement of said steel. there is actually an entry on the site along the lines of "if we judge that you dinged it, you're replacing it at current market value".

again to be clear, i'm not complaining i'm just trying to understand a written policy that for all intents bans use of affordable AR fodder, at a venue that HAS to be seeing a high use of AR15s in their classes and matches.

I would like to see him make that one stick. I mean, basically he's saying, "Come shoot at my range, but if I allow you to shoot something that damages my plates you pay for them." That would be like a bowling alley having cheap non regulation pins from China and saying, "Don't throw your ball too hard. You break a pin you buy it."

It's his range, and if he can't control it then that's his problem. If he allows someone to shoot something that damages his steel, whether through intention or negligence, then he has only himself to blame. It means he's either allowing people to shoot stuff he shouldn't, or he's not monitoring what people are doing closely enough.

It sounds like to me that he's trying to get away with the cheapest plates he can. Instead of going out and buying rifle plates, I think he's taking some pistol and or cheap rifle plates to their absolute limit.

 

[mjsdwash]

Ive seen real M193 shoot close to 3400 FPS over a chrono, in a 20" barrel, while the "xm193" in one form or another seems to run 2800-3100. The military contractors loaded that ammo extremely hot to guarantee meeting the velocity standard for the military from what i have seen. Im guessing everyone handloads in the 2900 range


If he's banning the real M193 spec stuff -the 3165 FPS @78 feet stuff- I could see why. If he's banning all stuff with the xm193 text, or all 55 Gr FMJ.... your right to be confused.

 

[Varminterror]

First - dimpled steel is dangerous steel.

Second - ball ammo at 150 or less will dimple steel from the 223rem, even AR 500. I've shot a lot of 50 Vmax at as short as 50yrds, and it does not create the same damage. I have a 10" which was ruined by ~300rnds of Rem UMC 55grn ball in a single session by two students at 100yrds.

If a guy has shot much steel, all of the above is very plain to see.

I don't let guys shoot ball ammo at my steel closer than 200yrds either.

Steel is consumable, so is your pick up. But running your pickup into the wall of your garage to stop every night when you get home from work doesn't make any more sense to me than does abusing your steel - especially in a range where liability for others is assumed.

 

[HB]

You should see RO's eyes light up when I load up a mag of "green tip" which are actually hand loaded factory second Sierra tipped blitz kings. They look like m855 but are loaded light and about the most framgible bullet you can buy.

HB

 

[Low_Speed_Notper8or]

Just put your XM193 in Wolf gold boxes or load it in your magazines, its exactly the same as any other 55 grain ball

 

[Hoser]

Just put your XM193 in Wolf gold boxes or load it in your magazines, its exactly the same as any other 55 grain ball

Until you get caught doing that.

Getting labeled a cheater is a bad thing as is tearing up someones steel targets.

If a club has specifically asked you to not shoot XM193, then don't. If you don't like the rule, shoot somewhere else.

That said, far too many clubs/match directors treat steel as a one time investment instead of a consumable.

 

[Low_Speed_Notper8or]

Its literally the same ammo. Wolf gold and practically every other 55 grain military ball round is all made to m193 spec. If anything a 20 inch barrel with regular .223 would tear up plates even worse.

What at that point why not make people only shoot soft lead 7.62x39mm black powder loads or something

 

[Detritus]

Wolf gold and practically every other 55 grain military ball round is all made to m193 spec. If anything a 20 inch barrel with regular .223 would tear up plates even worse.

What at that point why not make people only shoot soft lead 7.62x39mm black powder loads or something

Yeah, considering his target market/audience, this policy doesn't make sense.
Of course since I first posted this I've overheard or otherwise encountered quite a number of stories about this particular range owner that uh... indicate his gyro might be a few degrees off true... so no telling what the real reasoning behind the policy is, if there even is a legit reason (other than possibly trying to force folk to buy "his" ammo)

 

[Hoser]

Its literally the same ammo. Wolf gold and practically every other 55 grain military ball round is all made to m193 spec. If anything a 20 inch barrel with regular .223 would tear up plates even worse.

What at that point why not make people only shoot soft lead 7.62x39mm black powder loads or something

I get it and I understand. But it is someones rule.

We have a local long range bolt gun match at the Whittington Center in Northern NM. I have been shooting it for 15+ years. Suddenly the MD puts a 3,000 fps speed limit on ammo. His steel, his match, his rules.

To purposely go out of your way to break the rules isn't cool.

 

[Detritus]

To purposely go out of your way to break the rules isn't cool.

Agreed.
I started this thread with the idea of finding out if there was some logical reason behind the rule (little bit of yep, little bit of nope, in context, on that one) not with any wish to circumvent the rule. and as of right now I have little if any need to patronize the range in question.