Why You Do Not Want Perry Mason (or Atticus Finch)

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Kleanbore, Aug 15, 2022.

  1. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,703
    The story of a criminal defense case, starting with a dark and stormy night....
    ************************


    You heard the storm, but you slept through most of it.

    The next morning, you dress and go down for coffee and breakfast, and your spouse tells you that there is a large branch down in the side yard.

    Sho nuff.

    You finish your coffee, get the battery powered chain saw from the garage, and head out onto the driveway to go around the house with it.

    Fortunately, you see the two thugs before they stab you or smash your head. They demand your keys, your cell-phone, and your wallet. That's robbery. Property aside, you are imminent danger. If you hand over the stuff, you may then be cut up with your own saw. That's why robbery is classified as a crime against persons.

    It's a jungle out there.

    They continue to advance. You assume a defensive stance and turn on the saw (I saw that in a horror movie once). It works. They are deterred. They depart, on the double-quick.

    You are unhurt. You are shaken, not stirred.

    It was a clear case of self defense--at least, according to your story. Because of the demand and the disparity of numbers, you arguably have reason to believe that you were faced with an immediate threat of imminent, serious bodily harm, or even death.

    But their story will surely be different. "We asked him for directions, and he...".

    What should you do now (multiple choice)?
    1. Take care of the branch.
    2. Go inside and gather your wits.
    3. Be the first to call it in, and engage legal representation immediately.
    The correct answer is "3".

    You have threatened the use of deadly force on other humans. Your act was no doubt justified, but it is now up to you to be able to defeat any argument that it was not--to at least establish reasonable doubt about any accusation that you committed an unlawful act of violence.

    Postpone clearing the branch.

    Just one more thing: the field of view of the security camera, which does not have an audio channel, did not capture sufficient information to support your account of the incident. The video is ambiguous. There are no witnesses.

    This concludes the story portion of this post. Now, about that lawyer.

    ***************

    You do not want "someone from the phone book".

    You do not want the attorney who set up your trust, or the one who handled your daughter's divorce.

    You need a criminal defense lawyer.

    ....but not just any criminal defense lawyer. The defense team that just successfully defended the two yoots who were accused of holding up the Crispy Creme is not for you.

    Defending the self defense case differs markedly from the ordinary criminal defense case.

    In the latter, the attorney's task is to prevent the state from proving that his or her client did the deed.

    In a self defense case, the defendant must admit having done the deed. He must then present successfully the evidence and argument that shows that his act had been immediately necessary, reasonable, and lawful.

    The fictional basis for Barnaby Jones or Matlock is not equipped for this. It is a unique legal specialty.

    Even if the attorney has studied the legal theory of self defense law....

    The problem is not just knowing self defense law. Andrew Branca's Law of Self Defense course is great for that, and in MAG-20, Massad Ayoob teaches far more on self defense law than is taught in law school.

    I do recommend them both, but what they do not teach are things like how quickly an act of violence can occur; reaction times, perception, and cognitive decision-making; why six or twelve quick shots can be more than reasonable; how quickly people can move--in all axes--and more.

    So, how should you choose your attorney? Watch the video.

    But first, remember these three critical things:
    1. You cannot talk yourself out of suspicion by speaking to the arriving officers, but you can talk yourself into it.
    2. Should any critical exculpatory evidence disappear at the scene, your goose may be cooked; say enough to prevent that.
    3. Don't say a thing to the media! Let your attorney do that.
    I've always considered chain saws to be dangerous. This a different angle.

    Here's the video; believe me, Mas knows what he's talking about:

    http://www.backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/selecting-an-attorney-for-a-self-defense-case/

    Feel free to share.
     
    Beck, drband and CoalCrackerAl like this.
  2. shafter

    shafter Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,559
    In my experience the bad guys don't call it in because they usually have warrants and the homeowner cuts up his wood and stacks it for the winter. At least in my part of the country, if for whatever reason the police get called, the homeowner doesn't get charged if he's on his own property. If no one was hurt and it's just one side of the story or one person's word against the other it's going to get documented and that's it. It's never going to see a courtroom.
     
  3. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,703
    Quite possible and maybe even likely, but not the most prudent thing to do. Calling first establishes who is listed as the victim. Not calling, like flight, can be seen as an indication of guilt.
     
    gyp_c2, Coyote3855 and epags like this.
  4. citizenconn

    citizenconn Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2022
    Messages:
    863
    Location:
    Houston-ish, TX
    Yeah, if they went so far as to threaten me, I'd call the police but probably not a lawyer at that point.

    I came out of my kitchen door a while back, about 10am, and there was a guy in my yard looking around my SUV and being generally suspicious. I told him howdy and asked what was up. Yes, I was carrying concealed as I do almost all the time I go out in the front yard. Turns out he is the newish guy renting the house on the corner which faces an opposite street to my house, but is in essence my next door neighbor.

    Evidently he and his wife got into an argument and she threw her diamond bracelet over the fence and into my yard. He was looking for it because it was very valuable, he said. I told him to look as much as he wanted, and he said this was his third time coming over to look. He had been too ashamed to ask for permission because of the circumstances. I told him I had been married 19 years before we called it quits and understood exactly what he was going through.

    I never saw him again. Evidently whatever caused the argument was enough that she moved out and he followed shortly after. He never found the bracelet. I wonder if my yard guy had found an expensive new bauble for his wife or girlfriend and never said anything.
     
    FL-NC, danmc and Blue Jays like this.
  5. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,703
    That'll work, ulness you have to peak with the police.
     
    gyp_c2 likes this.
  6. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,896
    Location:
    Southwestern IL-ANNOY
    This isn't a case of self-defense but it reiterates the need to be the first caller to the police.
    About 30 years ago, an animal hoarder moved into a 12' x 60' mobile home next to mine. She thought we would be "friends" as I had dogs as well - until she found out I was also a hunter.
    One day, I was in my back yard working in my garden. I was on my knees working carefully around the underground phone lines and the access post in the corner of my lot. I glimpsed some motion out of the corner of my eye, only to see this woman running at me with a metal pipe raised over her head. As she brought it down, I grabbed it with both hands and yanked it out of hers. She screamed something at me (I don't remember what now) as she ran back to her trailer. I went in and called as well but when the police showed up, I was arrested for "battery".
    As an example how screwed up the courts in this IL-ANNOY county were at that time (and may still be), the police had a somewhat "out-of-focus" Polaroid of a bruise on this woman's forearm where she claimed I had grabbed her arm. I pointed out that the "bruise" was smooth, symmetrical band around her arm about 2.5" wide and not the shape of a hand imprint.
    I still lost. :confused: :barf:
    I had neither the funds to afford a lawyer nor was I "poor enough" to qualify for a public defender, so I got screwed. :fire: :cuss:

    Be the first to call or suffer the consequences.
     
    old lady new shooter and danmc like this.
  7. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,703
    Not self defense?
     
    gyp_c2 likes this.
  8. Anchorite

    Anchorite Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2018
    Messages:
    956
    Location:
    Between Blackacre and the Grid
    As a practicing lawyer handling the defense of major felonies (15+ years), I like to read the comments in these posts. It helps me with jury selection and voir dire, especially in cases where SD may be an appropriate defense tactic/theory. I like to know what common citizens think about self defense and what has shaped their views. Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2022
    FL-NC, gyp_c2 and luzyfuerza like this.
  9. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,703
    Probably a very poor sample here....
     
    gyp_c2 likes this.
  10. Anchorite

    Anchorite Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2018
    Messages:
    956
    Location:
    Between Blackacre and the Grid
    Probably… but any sample, however statistically insignificant, is worth something.
     
    JTHunter, FL-NC and gyp_c2 like this.
  11. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Messages:
    2,900
    Location:
    Mechanicsville, VA
    I don't own a battery powered chainsaw because I'm not an idiot.

    No chance of this scenario happening where I live in the sticks without me getting the drop on the perps. So I'm unable to relate.

    But I do empathize with you suburban or city folks, and maybe the OP's story will in some way help you.
     
    Anchorite and Blue Jays like this.
  12. armoredman

    armoredman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    18,315
    Location:
    proud to be in AZ
    Great write up, but now I've got Ozzy's song running through my head, thanks...
     
    Blue Jays likes this.
  13. Buzznrose

    Buzznrose Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,571
    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    What a condescending post.

    Quality battery powered saws are not for loggers or folks who cut cords of firewood, but for most people who do occasional trimming and cutting, they are extremely handy and way easier to deal with.

    As far as living in the boonies and no one able to get the drop on you…I’d wager there are points of weakness in pretty much any property…but I’m sure you’ve done your best to secure things.

    Below is a pretty good video by John Lovell on a recent breach to his rural property…what happened and lessons learned.

     
  14. Blue Jays

    Blue Jays Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Messages:
    1,000
    Location:
    USA
    My gosh. John Lovell's response was to put a methamphetamine addict into his car and drive at speeds (exceeding 110 mph on roads posted 40 mph) to transport him to the hospital? I guess the innocent fitness walkers, runners, hikers, and cyclists were "on their own" during his selfish episode.
     
    Ethan Verity likes this.
  15. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    15,703
    You COMPLETELY missed the point. Substitute anything that can be used as a defensive weapon.
    good for you.
    That's too bad. Should we gather that you do not understand the discussion?
     
  16. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2016
    Messages:
    8,238
    Location:
    Fl panhandle
    Thanks for this. Its interesting to hear what someone who has actually been to the school and does this for a living has to say on the matter. As someone who isn't an attorney, I have as much to offer on these matters as I do on how to fly an airplane- something else I have never been trained on or attempted to do, but I have seen done a lot.
     
    Anchorite, Jeff White and Blue Jays like this.
  17. tepin

    tepin Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    565
    Location:
    AZ
    Most likely a jury of your peers won’t be your peers at all. The state will try to keep gun people and critical thinkers off the jury. The state will target those that watch CNN and MSNCB all day and don’t understand why people need to own firearms when we have the police to call. o_O
     
    aaaaa, JTHunter and citizenconn like this.
  18. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    Messages:
    2,896
    Location:
    Southwestern IL-ANNOY
    Speaking of "unconventional weapons" - - -

    Unconventional weapons.jpg

    Use the yardstick on its narrow edge and you might break a forearm or wrist. :) On the broad side, it just bends. :(
    The old umbrella has a slightly sharpened point and is long enough to completely skewer somebody. Just don't slash with it as the hollow tube will just bend. o_O
    We all know about rubber hoses and their uses. ;)
    Half of an old pair of loppers. The curved side broke so I took the screw out and sharpened the blade. It isn't likely to do a good job penetrating but it should do an adequate job of slashing eyes, face, neck, abdomen, etc. :eek: :D
    A 10" chef's knife. Need I say more? :evil:

    One item is not in this picture. I have an old battery-powered solar light (now defunct) that I kept the 4-ribbed ground spike and the vertical tube. Each piece is about 7" and the ground stake is like an old German bayonet (+). I don't know if the stake is cast aluminum or zinc die-cast as it is very lightweight metal and "silvery" looking. I hand filed about half the length of the spike to put a bit of an edge on the 4 ribs with a nice, sharp point on the tip. It is lying on the floor of my car between the center console and the passenger seat where it is readily available. The point might not last more than 1-4 times (depending on if it hits bone) but, at 6-7" long, it should take more than 1 or 2 to stop the threat.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice