Why your gun should be fully loaded

[CraigJS]

The origional poster said that the dog, "ran acrossed 4 lanes of traffic with teeth barred, headed straight for me and the dogs". Sounds to me like the dog was the agressor.. Or was it just SMILING wanting to say "hi".
Sorry jobotinsky, but I'd have fired. Carry a round up...
Be safe.

 

[32winspl]

I was at a Mountain Bike race in Memphis a number of years ago and wasn't entered because of an injury. It was a pretty big deal (Attended, raced, and won by Tinker Juarez, Cannondale's factory sponsored pro). I was off in the woods near a fairly spectacular jump with several dozen spectators; some with their dogs. Within a couple feet of me was one girl with her Rott, and another girl with her 8 week old (8" tall or less) Cocker pup. Everyone was waiting for the leaders to make it to our area and talking. The dogs were getting much attention and all was good until the puppy went to sniff the front leg of the rott. In less than a second, the rott bit down on the pup, killing it nearly but not quite instantly. His owner was screaming at and beating on him to release the pup while the owner of the pup was screaming ant trying to remove it from his jaws. I had an AMT backup .45 in my pocket in a pocket holster, and my hand on the grip. I was (and had been) standing almost directly over the rott. There was no way in hell that I was going to place either of my hands near the maw of that dog. Had the rott attacked the pup's owner or anyone else, I'd have shot him up to 6 times and run off into the woods immediately, as Tennessee hadn't yet passed it's concealed carry law. As it was, the rott killed the puppy, almost biting it in half. It didn't die on the scene, but did a day or so later according to the local paper.

 

[Zoogster]

There is many reasons a sidearm should be fully loaded most of the time. Almost as importantly it should not have a mag disconnect for similar reasons.

At a moments notice with a human or animal aggressor you may be within a couple feet of a dangerous threat. You are routinely going through your day when suddenly you have a knife, firearm, blunt object or even an unarmed attacker/attackers on you. They might attack you suddenly, or approach in a non threatening way not presenting themselves as a threat and suddenly become an obvious threat.
That might be when they first attack you even.

If a few people or a dog attack you and you end up on the ground you will probably be using at least one arm to deflect some of the attacks or grab counter some of the attacks or offer it to the animal rather than your face, neck etc
That means you need to be able to quickly grab your firearm while in a struggle with only one hand. You then need to be able to fire one handed as well if necessary effectively.

There is times a round not in the chamber might be better than one in. Those times are few and limited.
If someone was to routinely carry without one in the chamber it might be wise to put hooks on the slide of the firearm so that it can be cocked at a moments notice with one hand simply by hooking those hooks into clothing, a belt, or anything else handy.

A sidearm and many self defense situations happen inside of 2 yards. A man with a gun or knife is not always going to announce themselves to you as a threat from 10+ feet away. They are far more likely to simply approach you as if they are walking past, asking for something or some kind of information, or otherwise get within arms distance before showing themself to be a threat.
That means all that training with two hands firing at a target 10+ feet away will be of little importance in such a situation.

The speed of your draw, having good retention practice and being able to bring your firearm to bear from a position that offers the perp the most difficulty in grabbing it are important.
You need to be able to fire it from your waist with one hand, under your arm, pulled back perhaps near your shoulder or in another position that gives you little to no sight picture. You need to be able to do it while in a struggle and with someone grabbing, punching, and grappling with you if necessary. Maybe even while trying to keep the muzzle of a weapon pointed away from you, or minimizing the damage you take from a sharp object.
You could even have your dominant hand injured and damaged beyond immediate use and need to improvise by drawing or firing with your non dominant hand.



It would be great if all threats presented themselves from several yards away, gave you the opportunity to draw, get into the stance you are comfortable and familiar with, and get a nice two handed grip on the firearm while you utter the lawyer rehearsed words instructors or others have told you to say, and do everything in the appropriate steps. All while you are uninjured and have not yet been attacked with a clear head and all your body parts working well.
That option however may not always present itself. You need to be able to adapt at a moment's notice.
Training/practice and a weapon that is operable with one hand immediately is helpful.

 

[hybridgenius]

to jobotinsky, I'm glad you were able to defend yourself in alot of "unarmed" occasions, but I hope the one day you actually needed to be armed and wasnt doesnt happen to you. Like that saying, I rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. Sometimes overreacting can save your life. How are you so sure you could live through a situation unarmed all the time.

 

[jabotinsky]

Thank God (and apparently your self-defense training) that you were able to succesfully defend yourself in the above described circumstances. I think most of us would rather employ the "unfair" advantage of an armed response, however. That's why we carry. I would have no problem committing the "sin" of shooting a "very large attacking dog". I'm curious why you were not armed?

Rainbow: I wasn't armed with the dog attacks 'cause I was a teenager at the time delivering the Asbury Park Press in rural pinelands of New Jersey. The worst dog attack was by a Belgian Shepherd who had it in for me a long time and broke through the owner's storm door to chase me on my bike. He was big and I thought he'd kill me, I got a couple folded papers in between his jaws when he lunged for my throat and shoved him off, fought him a while, then the owner finally got control. After that, I carried wasp spray, ammonia in a squirt gun and a baseball bat in my bike's basket.

The worst human attack was by a gang of four crackheads, two were armed, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but got out in one piece.

I think it's best to have a range of options to handling violence besides resorting to firearms. As I get older and less physically able, those options get fewer. I don't fault somebody older or less able for defending themselves against an attacking canine with a firearm.

But a few bad actors caused a pitbull hysteria a few years back, which like the "assault weapons" hysteria is pure BS. My dog pants and shoes teeth when she's trotting and tired, sort of a pit/dingo grimace, I'd hate for folks to take pot shots, she wouldn't hurt a fly.

I dog with its teeth wrapped around your leg is a different story. And I stand by my assertion: most dogs are better than us: more loyal, more devoted, more affectionate.

FWIW, I also carry unchambered or Israeli style and it works for me and lots of folks around here.

 

[NASCAR_MAN]

It's strange, but this isn't the first time I've read on here about a dog reacting to someone pulling a gun on them by backing away and ceasing to threaten them. Not sure if its the actual gun, or the posture and command someone tends to assume when getting ready to throw down on the dog. Probably the latter.

You are probably right...it's the "latter". I have a cousin who jokes that the sound of a 12 Gauge Bolt Closing is pre-programmed into every dog's chromosones. If you don't believe it, then try it sometimes...the dogs seem to know what's up.

As far as Crebralfix is concerned, all I have to say is..."No one got hurt, neither man nor beast!" And that's always a good outcome to a violent confrontation. So...maybe what you were doing was just fine? I can't say for sure, but the positive results seem to speak for themselves. Good Work, Sir!

NASCAR

 

[Mad Chemist]

The original author should have deleted the dog's breed from the thread. As expected, this thread has devolved into an argument over dog breeds with little discussion of tactics.

Why would anyone carry an autoloader unchambered if it is your primary weapon?
I can understand keeping it in this condition if your primary is a rifle and it's a standardization safety issue. Pros and cons, but still understandable.

However if you regularly carry a handgun but still feel that it is "unsafe" while chambered and ready it seems indicative of either a lack of confidence in particular weapon or a lack of training.

I feel like a broken record, but here goes; If you feel that this method is safe or effective, then attempt it in even the most simple FOF evolution and see how well it works. My personal guarantee is, it won't.

Don't take my word for it. Run it yourself.
Some easy scenarios require minimal gear: maybe a pair of airsofts preferably similar to the make/model of EDC handgun, a training blade, a rolled up magazine, some boxing gloves, and mouthpieces for safety.

Try unchambered handgun vs. chambered.
Try unchambered gun vs. knife. (short and long range)
Try unchambered weapon vs. club.
Try unchambered vs. close quarter H2H.

If you really want to game it try unchambered against empty hand or blade from a clinch.

 

[RIATAC45]

+1 CraigJS I would have fired also. I heard of a similar senario from my old landlord, only the dog's owner no longer has a problem with his dog attacking or breathing for that matter. A double tap from his .357 fixed him right up.

 

[OregonJohnny]

Without getting into breed arguments...

When I walk my dog, it's at night. I also don't walk right around my house because it's on a short private road with a lot of incline/declines and a country road very close with cars zooming by at 60 mph. So I drive a few miles away to flat neighborhoods. Plus, my dog is a Welsh Corgi, strong and athletic, but short and compact, 30 pounds. So I walk at night, in unfamiliar areas with a smaller breed. My CCW is a Springfield XD40 sub-compact in an IWB leather holster. I used to carry it "Israeli style" with a loaded clip but no round chambered. After a while I started thinking, "What if something happens suddenly with no time to react?" I'd have to un-wrap the dog leash from one hand to pull the gun and rack the slide. I now carry with one chambered and after a while, I've gotten used to it and have no safety concerns.

 

[hqmhqm]

We took our dog to the range just once, and he was in the car. Nonetheless, since then, when I take a pistol out or a rifle, to clean it or put it away in the house, he leaves the room.

 

[wig]

Maybe the dog should charge the walker with a brandishing complaint!

 

[LanEvo`]

Since this forum is supposed to be about tactics...

So I kicked him in the head, and that gave me enough time to free my shooting hand and grab my gun.

"What if something happens suddenly with no time to react?" I'd have to un-wrap the dog leash from one hand to pull the gun and rack the slide.

I have to wonder why you would hold the leash in your strong hand

If I have to tie up one of my hands, I would always go with the weak hand. Frees up the strong hand to do other (potentially more important) stuff. Just a thought

 

[DMK]

I pulled on him, and pointed it at him and yelled at him. Lucky for me, he was gun shy, and backed off, which gave me a second to chamber a round. I stood there for about 10 seconds, pointing the gun at him...

Some people might think this is ridiculous but it's true sometimes. I have a half rottweiler half coonhound and he barks and goes into attack mode when he sees me holding a gun and keeps his distance. curiously, he does the exact same thing when i aim a rubber band at him...

Animals read body language, dogs seem to be especially good at it (probably because they are natural social pack animals and spend a lot of time bonding with humans).

It wasn't recognition of a gun, these dogs read the body language and noticed you went into attack mode. They probably don't understand the weapon being used, but they are pretty wary that you do. In fact, I'd bet it confused the pitbull enough to throw his OODA loop. They are known to get tunnel vision on an aggressive attack (note the one that got creamed by the minivan in Moga's story above, same thing happened to me, but I was the driver and the pitbull was going after a jogger).

 

[rainbowbob]

Police officer shoots two pit bulls after attack in West Seattle
By Sonia Krishnan
Seattle Times staff reporter

A Seattle police officer shot two pit bulls Tuesday night in West Seattle, killing one and wounding the other after the dogs attacked a neighbor and became aggressive toward the officer.

The officer responded to a call after 8 p.m., and found the neighbor suffering from bites to his hand and arm, police said. The man had been walking his dog on a leash when he was attacked, according to a police report.

The officer located the pit bulls in the 8800 block of 24th Avenue Southwest "roaming the yard and being aggressive towards neighbors," the report said. When the dogs turned on the officer, he fired at them.

The dead dog was released to its owner and the wounded animal was removed by Animal Control. He was taken to the vet to be treated for a bullet that went through his leg and is recuperating, said Don Jordan, director of the Seattle Animal Shelter.

There was no identification on the dogs, Jordan said. Police are investigating whether there has been a history of complaints.

It's unclear if the injured dog will be released back to his owner, said police spokeswoman Reneé Witt.

More than half of the dogs at the shelter are pit bulls or pit-bull mixes, and about 30 percent of the dog-bite cases animal-control officers investigate involve the breed.

This is supposed to be about tactics, and this is another example of why you should be armed and ready with one in the chamber and your leash in the weak hand when walking your dog. I won't editorialize on the last paragraph in this news story. You can draw your own conclusions on that.

 

[gcpd]

Try this with your dog. Take a piece of paper and put it in front of your face. It will confuse a dog for some odd reason. I have heard of people doing this to dogs that were approaching them with good results.

 

[S&Wfan]

I made the decision a very long time ago that all my handguns be loaded.

IF I ever have to use one when a dangerous situation comes on me, there won't be time to avoid the conflict, nor to load the gun.

Whether it be a large charging dog, or a thug suddenly pulling and swinging a blade, there's no guarantee that you'll have use of both of your hands and arms by the time you draw your weapon. By then, one arm may be disabled or preoccupied with a threat that's trying to take your life.

Trying to rack an unloaded gun so it will work may rob you of a second or so of attention that may prevent you from even getting the chance to load and fire the gun.

Also, practice only left handed, only right handed, only with your dominant eye . . . only with your non-dominant eye.

Learn to fight efficiently and quickly with limited time and assets, for when the SHTF there's a huge possibility that you'll begin your defense already wounded or preoccupied . . . just trying to survive the moment.

T.

PS: Glad things came down as they did . . . and that you had a second chance to see what you really need to do in the future . . . and that is to keep it locked and loaded at all times!

 

[RubenZ]

Is incorrect, it is like saying guns kill people and we all know that is incorrect. A dog is a trainable animal and is only what a owner makes them, a responsible owner will socialize their pet and train them to be a functioning member of society. I have a 120 lb rott that is the biggest dork and loveable teddy bear in the world! Change the stereotype!!!

Sorry buddy but stereotypes just don't develop out of thin air. There usually is a reason for them.

And yes the Majority of PitBulls/Rotts etc you come across in the streets are usually aggressive in nature. And I was a Rott Owner for a long time.

 

[RIDE]

Here is my favorite line:

...gave me enough time to free my shooting hand and grab my gun. I pulled on him, and pointed it at him and yelled at him.

What was he yelling to the DOG???
"Freeze... or I'll shoot!!!!!"
"Don't do it dog... don't do it.. it's not worth it!!!!"
"We don't want any trouble... you can have our treats, and we'll all just go our separate ways"


IMO it's always best to be carrying with 1 in the chamber... 1 second less in reaction time could very well prove to be a life saver.

 

[weisse52]

Not the least bit concerned about the breed, but if a dog charges me and my Great Danes in the manner the OP described I am going to get ready to "end the threat" I may have chosen other methods years ago, but physically I am just not able to do that now.

My kids have Pit's. Most of them have been gentle, but that is with people. Toward other dogs they have acted, and been agressive. The kids train them, work to stop agession, but even then one of them had a $1000 vet bill when the older male chewed a door to get at a younger male when they where not home. MY EXPERIENCE says I agree with this statement. "Majority of PitBulls/Rotts etc you come across in the streets are usually aggressive in nature". YOUR experience may vary. I love dogs, but I am cautious around all unknown animals. I wish I had a dollar everytime I have heard "My dog has never done that before"
I am glad the OP learned, and shared a valuable lesson.

 

[doc540]

Perceptions:
1. "You have to be a nitwit to pull your weapon on a dog just because it's running in your direction."
2. "But the first clearly aggressive move came from the human in this case."



Fact: "The dog ran across 4 lanes of traffic with teeth barred, headed straight for me and the dogs" at night.


I'll proudly say I'm the kind of "nitwit" that will pull my gun on anything or anyone charging across four lanes of traffic with its teeth bared at me at night.

And if anyone thinks I'm making the "first clearly aggressive move", you don't really want to experience my "second clearly agressive move".

 

[springer7676]

Prepared

Being prepared for any issue whether its changing the tire on the car or walking your dog at night requires some planning and thought. A handgun that is taken in preparation for some issue that might be suspected but is not loaded is in my opinion not being prepared. My wake up call was arriving one afternoon at my farm which is 28 miles from my residence. I drove up in the drive near the barn, got out, and was face to face with a pit bull that obviously had been dropped off in the country so to speak... we looked at each other for several seconds then he laid his short ears back and started for me....my handgun was in the truck. Luckily I had not shut the door to the truck so I made it the truck, slammed the door as the pit jumped on the door several times growling and barking... once he cooled down, I lowered the window and fired. Since then I get out of the truck with the handgun in my pocket, a revolver and its ready to go...my shot however missed the pit and he ran off in the woods. I reported it to the county police to be aware of the threat.

 

[conrad carter]

Nobody's mentioned pepper spray. OC10 is a good choice. Walking with your dog makes it easy to use it. Riding a bicycle and being run up on is much more difficult because you're going faster. When walking it is always easy to see an attack coming even if from short distance. Trust your spray and fog them if they come with intent at 2 to 3 paces. I have been attacked by loose dogs probably more than 50 times while walking my dog. The only way I'd shoot would be if bubba had a grip on my dog in a fight. I was set upon so many times that I had a protocol with my dog. When a strange dog approaches I'd stop and have my dog sit at my side quietly. If the threat was a comer I would put my dog in a down and step forward to deal with the threat. (This requires that your dog won't get up unless commanded). If it was a mean one or two or three I would grab his collar as he sat and when they came I would command him to demonstrate. (I love that fierce barking.) If the dogs broke that perimeter I would let him fight unimpeded. Then, watch out for me because I was looking for rear legs to grab in order to launch that dog into orbit.
Recently I have been so POffd at the dogs running on us as we bike I let the leash drop and tell him to go get it. If we run into bruisers (2 or more) I'll retain the leash and do what's needed. The difficulty on a bike is that dogs come differently. It's all tricky but I have never seen OC 10 not turn a dog. You need your dog to understand what you want and you need your tools because each situation is different but if you're aware and prepared there's no reason to get hurt.

 

[DomMega]

You have to be a nitwit to pull your weapon on a dog just because it's running in your direction. Pitt bulls are less aggressive toward humans than most other breeds, with a lower incidence of attack against children than say, poodles or golden retrievers, according to the American Kennel Association. Maybe it's better to talk to the police or the owner of the dog rather than playing the canine gunslinger and spraying lead all around the neighborhood. An example of why we should always CCW with a round chambered? No, another example of Life in Condition Orange.

Lets not use statistics to lay base to what we would or would not have done in that situation. If a pitbull at full charge is bearing down on you, teeth glaring, eyes locked on you, you can pretty much assume it doesn't have a friendly interest in you. I would definitely have a firearm drawn at that point because I have already been attacked by a German Shepherd for no reason, and it was a dog that only understood German commands. I was riding my bike home from school in junior high and this gigantic beast just ran at me. I threw my 10 speed on top of him and ran the best I could up the street to my house. Luckily I made it. But having a large animal of any type running at you not knowing its intentions, owner, or training (if any) is pretty cut and dry. People die or become permanently disfigured from dog attacks and maulings all the time. Why become part of that statistic?

 

[BullfrogKen]

The third rail of politics - Social Security. The third rail of THR - dogs.


This thread was started to discuss the problems associated with carrying a gun without a chambered round.

It wasn't begun to debate dog breeds, how to avert dog attacks, or even anything dog related.

If there's one topic that's flat out guaranteed to get a lot of folks passionately riled up, on both sides of an issue, its dogs. I've seen it happen here time and time again.


Closed for 2 reasons: complete off topic drift, and to end this before it becomes a brawl.