jenniferjane
Member
I'm hearing the idea of open carry walks in Wisconsin get batted around more and more. I'd love to see someone take up this cause.
WI: tomorrow means CCW, or no CCW
- Thread starter Monkeyleg
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Won't do any good. The libs control the state supreme court. This was our last chance.
Once the feds give amnesty to xx million illegals it'll become even harder to get the dems out of the governors office.
Stick a fork in concealed carry for Wisconsin. It's done.
Once the feds give amnesty to xx million illegals it'll become even harder to get the dems out of the governors office.
Stick a fork in concealed carry for Wisconsin. It's done.
Stauffenberg
Member
God, why did I even move back to this state?
Perhaps they'll let it drop, but the Feds have been poking into Doyle over the state contracts.
I'm still trying to tally the legislature to see if we can at least still stay close to veto-proof on the PPA. I won't say it's "done" but it isn't good either.
I'm still trying to tally the legislature to see if we can at least still stay close to veto-proof on the PPA. I won't say it's "done" but it isn't good either.
Gray Peterson
Member
I disagree for multiple reasons. First off, open carry defense walks throws the issue right into the faces of the people who oppose CCW. Anti-gunners don't like seeing guns out in the open either, and even the previous SCOWI ruling stated that that was an option for those who want to carry for their personal protection.
Second, there is no reason why open carry is not protected. "bear arms", at it's very core, is about open carry, not concealed carry.
Monkeyleg
Member.
With only about 40% of the precincts reporting, I'd say it's a bit too early to start talking about open carry marches or any other ideas.
I stayed up until the wee hours in 2002 watching the returns. MaCallum was ahead by ten points. Then seven. Then four.
If we lose, I think we all need to take some time to relax and forget about it, and then come back with some fresh, new ideas.
I stayed up until the wee hours in 2002 watching the returns. MaCallum was ahead by ten points. Then seven. Then four.
If we lose, I think we all need to take some time to relax and forget about it, and then come back with some fresh, new ideas.
Liberal Gun Nut
Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2006
- Messages
- 388
I'm sorry to see this, WI! I know everyone there has fought so hard, for years, and come SO CLOSE, not once but twice.
Time to take a breath, step back and assess.
It's possible that legislation is still possible. Only one more vote was needed to overturn the veto. Maybe that can be put together now?
If not, consider alternatives with a fresh mind. Open carry walks are obvious. If your laws allow it, getting people to practice open carry as a routine, daily thing might help. Are court challenges possible? Maybe it's time to take a break from it anyway. Worst case, there will be another shot in 2010. I'm guessing Doyle will be termed out by then, the Iraq war will be over, Bush will be a receding memory, and the landscape will be quite different.
(at the time I'm posting this, 95% of precincts are reporting, and Doyle has won by a large margin)
Time to take a breath, step back and assess.
It's possible that legislation is still possible. Only one more vote was needed to overturn the veto. Maybe that can be put together now?
If not, consider alternatives with a fresh mind. Open carry walks are obvious. If your laws allow it, getting people to practice open carry as a routine, daily thing might help. Are court challenges possible? Maybe it's time to take a break from it anyway. Worst case, there will be another shot in 2010. I'm guessing Doyle will be termed out by then, the Iraq war will be over, Bush will be a receding memory, and the landscape will be quite different.
(at the time I'm posting this, 95% of precincts are reporting, and Doyle has won by a large margin)
The numbers I can find for zien say 159 of 167 districts reporting, 31269 for Kreitlow and 30117 for Zien.
http://www.wisconsinvote.org/election/index.cfm?c=3
http://www.wisconsinvote.org/election/index.cfm?c=3
Silent-Snail
Member
According to the WSJs I'm currently supposed to be delivering, at this moment Doyle has won by 12%. Haven't read beyond the front page yet so there are details I havn't seen. I fervently hope this is not the final count.
BTW I voted.:banghead:
BTW I voted.:banghead:
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Funny story from the polls...
My wife, being a city employee, "volunteered" to work the polls doing voter rgistration. She actually had a lady come in and tell her that she had voted in a different ward under her maiden name, but since she recently was married needed to register and vote under her new name!:banghead: True story.
My wife, being a city employee, "volunteered" to work the polls doing voter rgistration. She actually had a lady come in and tell her that she had voted in a different ward under her maiden name, but since she recently was married needed to register and vote under her new name!:banghead: True story.
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Silent-Snail
Member
Wow, suddenly losing weight so I can enlist takes on a whole new urgency. Going for a run see you guys later.
Why enlist? The dems are going to gut the military now that they control both the house AND the senate. Bush is allergic to the veto pen.
Wisconsin? I think Doyle cheated.
How else do you explain the gay marriage ban passing by such a landslide, and a republican being elected for atty general? Fishy.
F*** this sucks!
Dave Zein even got booted. ***?
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Wisconsin? I think Doyle cheated.
How else do you explain the gay marriage ban passing by such a landslide, and a republican being elected for atty general? Fishy.
F*** this sucks!
Dave Zein even got booted. ***?
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Jrsmith
Member
Well, looks like that move to Texas just got a big push. Sure, I'll feel far less safe living in Dallas, but at least I'll be allowed the means to protect myself. My girlfriend is going to be happy.
Amidst all the turmoil and disappointment, I'm still able to crack a smile in admiration of the innocence of a little boy.
I picked my 6yr old up from the after-school daycare program he attended today due to the half-day of school. After getting in the car, I explained he couldn't come with me this year as he did last year, because I'd already stopped in to cast my vote prior to picking him up.
He said, "That's alright, I voted in school today."
I said, "Oh yeah? What did you vote for today."
"My favorite candy. And I voted for the governor too."
"What candy got your vote today?"
"Reese’s Peanut Butter cups!"
"Who got your vote for governor?"
"I voted for Mark Green. Mrs. Frenkel said our vote doesn't count until we’re 18 years old, but they let us vote for fun."
"Why did you vote for Mark Green?"
"Well, because Doyle was already governor, and I thought it would be fair if Mark Green had a turn."
We had a good laugh over that. He earned himself a Happy Meal.
I picked my 6yr old up from the after-school daycare program he attended today due to the half-day of school. After getting in the car, I explained he couldn't come with me this year as he did last year, because I'd already stopped in to cast my vote prior to picking him up.
He said, "That's alright, I voted in school today."
I said, "Oh yeah? What did you vote for today."
"My favorite candy. And I voted for the governor too."
"What candy got your vote today?"
"Reese’s Peanut Butter cups!"
"Who got your vote for governor?"
"I voted for Mark Green. Mrs. Frenkel said our vote doesn't count until we’re 18 years old, but they let us vote for fun."
"Why did you vote for Mark Green?"
"Well, because Doyle was already governor, and I thought it would be fair if Mark Green had a turn."
We had a good laugh over that. He earned himself a Happy Meal.
StopTheGrays
Member
Where can I pick up my Walker 2010 sign?
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At least Van Hollen got in as AG. I hope he lives up to his promise to clean up gov't. This assumes the dem controlled legislature does not gut his budget first.
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At least Van Hollen got in as AG. I hope he lives up to his promise to clean up gov't. This assumes the dem controlled legislature does not gut his budget first.
I was initialy shocked that the Marriage Amendment went up on an almost 60/40 landslide, and then Green lost by about 12%, but later it made sense.
Apparently people have a visceral reaction to gay marriage that trancends party lines. My step-FIL is a prime example. Huge Democrat voter, he's a pro-labor, pro-union, blue-collar intelectual type, that can drone on and on about how tax cuts are bad, and how it'll destroy all these various programs and infrastructure etc. ignore the massive Doyle scandals, and recite all the talking points about the manufactred Green "scandals". He's big on music, thinks public money to support the arts is important.
However, when it came to gay marriage, he was suddenly foaming at the mouth with biblical justifications, insisting on his view that homosexuality is a "choice" etc. Strangely, I've never known him to be a particularily religious guy. Totally blew me away.
As a right-libertarian, the whole gay marriage amendment made me uneasy. I didn't like the idea of expanding the pervue of government into gay marriage. I didn't like expanding the government pervue into banning it either. It really left me nowhere to go.
I don't feel great about it, and the reasons seem petty even to me, but I'm now glad the amendment passed. It puts a "red state" stamp on WI, and it might help make the most liberal demographics abandon the sate for more "tolerant" places, which might have the side-effect of helping WI on RKBA issues in the long run.
Apparently people have a visceral reaction to gay marriage that trancends party lines. My step-FIL is a prime example. Huge Democrat voter, he's a pro-labor, pro-union, blue-collar intelectual type, that can drone on and on about how tax cuts are bad, and how it'll destroy all these various programs and infrastructure etc. ignore the massive Doyle scandals, and recite all the talking points about the manufactred Green "scandals". He's big on music, thinks public money to support the arts is important.
However, when it came to gay marriage, he was suddenly foaming at the mouth with biblical justifications, insisting on his view that homosexuality is a "choice" etc. Strangely, I've never known him to be a particularily religious guy. Totally blew me away.
As a right-libertarian, the whole gay marriage amendment made me uneasy. I didn't like the idea of expanding the pervue of government into gay marriage. I didn't like expanding the government pervue into banning it either. It really left me nowhere to go.
I don't feel great about it, and the reasons seem petty even to me, but I'm now glad the amendment passed. It puts a "red state" stamp on WI, and it might help make the most liberal demographics abandon the sate for more "tolerant" places, which might have the side-effect of helping WI on RKBA issues in the long run.
Gene_WI
Member
The gay marriage amendment is idiotic and a huge loss for WI. Gay marriage was illegal under Wisconsin state law, before the ban passed. With the ban in place, ALL UNMARRIED couples regardless of sexual orientation lose their civil rights. This amendment is especially brutal to senior citizens, who do not remarry out of respect for the deceased but live together to lower health care costs.
In reality the gay marriage amendment is what ruined Greens chances. I live in Madison; many folks I know would support a pro gun republican if the candidate was not religiously right wing and attempting to legislate morality. Liberals in Madison do not like Doyal, however, for many of them civil rights are more important then gun rights, so they voted for him.
The two party system is a travesty.
WI lost big time this election season, all around it was the worst possible outcome.
In reality the gay marriage amendment is what ruined Greens chances. I live in Madison; many folks I know would support a pro gun republican if the candidate was not religiously right wing and attempting to legislate morality. Liberals in Madison do not like Doyal, however, for many of them civil rights are more important then gun rights, so they voted for him.
The two party system is a travesty.
WI lost big time this election season, all around it was the worst possible outcome.
cracked butt
Member
Not really. Everyone I know that was solidy against the Amendment was a raging liberal who was going to vote for Doyle anyway.
jenniferjane
Member
Our experiences differ. My county widely supported Green, but I don't know anyone - literally, not one person - who voted for the amendment. Primarily because you don't eff with the constitution unless it needs to be effed with.
The near-landslide that the amendment passed with shows that there were tons of Doyle supporters who must have voted for the amendment.
I think these were likely socialy conservative blue-collar union voters, and Democratic leaning minority communities that are traditionaly homophobic, namely blacks and latinos. My MIL's husband is a perfect example. He's an almost socialist pro-labor union Democrat, but when it came to gay marriage, he shocked my wife and I by being almost foaming at the mouth angry over it. He's also a musician and into the "art scene" so you'd think he'd be tolerant…. Surpise!
I guess he's an extreme example of what lots of Wisconsinites felt.
Another factor, the "political trickery" was on behalf of the "No vote" forces. They ran deliberatly confusing ads carefuly designed to confuse people that voting "no" was a vote against gay marriage. OTOH, as steeped in creepy religious-rightisms as they were, every ad and pamphlet I saw about the "yes" vote was very clear that it stood against gay marriage.
I think that the "no" ad campaign backfired very, very, very badly, and many people who didn't care either way, or had an attitude of "live and let live", got pushed to vote "yes" just out of spite at having their inteligence insulted by the "no" campaign.
I just wish the whole issue didn't come up at all, and was left where it was. It drove turnout, but didn't help Green. I don't know that lower turnout would have helped Green either, but in hindsight, it wouldn't have made anything worse.
If the gay-rights forces are serious about gay marriage as a true rights issue, and not just a wedge issue for forcing broader "acceptance" onto society, they'll get serious about creating legal clinics that help gay couples draft wills, and durable power of attorneys for each other. Then gay couples would still be screwed on taxes, employer benefits, and the right to call themselves "married", but at least all the inheritance and deathbed/hospital horror stories would be done away with.
I think these were likely socialy conservative blue-collar union voters, and Democratic leaning minority communities that are traditionaly homophobic, namely blacks and latinos. My MIL's husband is a perfect example. He's an almost socialist pro-labor union Democrat, but when it came to gay marriage, he shocked my wife and I by being almost foaming at the mouth angry over it. He's also a musician and into the "art scene" so you'd think he'd be tolerant…. Surpise!
I guess he's an extreme example of what lots of Wisconsinites felt.
Another factor, the "political trickery" was on behalf of the "No vote" forces. They ran deliberatly confusing ads carefuly designed to confuse people that voting "no" was a vote against gay marriage. OTOH, as steeped in creepy religious-rightisms as they were, every ad and pamphlet I saw about the "yes" vote was very clear that it stood against gay marriage.
I think that the "no" ad campaign backfired very, very, very badly, and many people who didn't care either way, or had an attitude of "live and let live", got pushed to vote "yes" just out of spite at having their inteligence insulted by the "no" campaign.
I just wish the whole issue didn't come up at all, and was left where it was. It drove turnout, but didn't help Green. I don't know that lower turnout would have helped Green either, but in hindsight, it wouldn't have made anything worse.
If the gay-rights forces are serious about gay marriage as a true rights issue, and not just a wedge issue for forcing broader "acceptance" onto society, they'll get serious about creating legal clinics that help gay couples draft wills, and durable power of attorneys for each other. Then gay couples would still be screwed on taxes, employer benefits, and the right to call themselves "married", but at least all the inheritance and deathbed/hospital horror stories would be done away with.
Monkeyleg
Member.
From conversations with co-workers, I don't think the Gay Marriage amendment was the reason for yesterday's carnage. The vote on the amendment crossed all sorts of party and ideological lines.
Doyle should never have been able to keep the lead in the polls that he enjoyed for months. His numbers were being lifted by the anti-Republican national backlash. He's now the "accidental governor."
I saw people at the polls who obviously hadn't voted in years, or even not voted at all previously. This was the case all across the country.
This was not a referendum on Doyle himself; if it were, he would have lost. It was a referendum on Republicans. If it had been Scott Walker running against Doyle, perhaps the results would have been different. We'll never know.
As for CCW, rather than waste the time before 2008 we should be working on new plans, new strategies, and new approaches. The way I've been handling things with the WCCA in the past won't work in this new environment. I'm hoping that others will have some fresh ideas.
One thing that I hope everyone will remember about this, and repeat it to as many friends and fellow shooters, is that Corey Graff of WGO spent a ton of money on radio advertising to defeat Dave Zien. The WGO helped the Democrats defeat Dave Zien. The WGO helped the Democrats defeat Republican Representative Mark Pettis, who was #1 on the Democrat's hit list in the Assembly. The WGO even helped the Democrats defeat Mark Green.
Whatever plans may lie ahead, we must also deal with WGO.
Doyle should never have been able to keep the lead in the polls that he enjoyed for months. His numbers were being lifted by the anti-Republican national backlash. He's now the "accidental governor."
I saw people at the polls who obviously hadn't voted in years, or even not voted at all previously. This was the case all across the country.
This was not a referendum on Doyle himself; if it were, he would have lost. It was a referendum on Republicans. If it had been Scott Walker running against Doyle, perhaps the results would have been different. We'll never know.
As for CCW, rather than waste the time before 2008 we should be working on new plans, new strategies, and new approaches. The way I've been handling things with the WCCA in the past won't work in this new environment. I'm hoping that others will have some fresh ideas.
One thing that I hope everyone will remember about this, and repeat it to as many friends and fellow shooters, is that Corey Graff of WGO spent a ton of money on radio advertising to defeat Dave Zien. The WGO helped the Democrats defeat Dave Zien. The WGO helped the Democrats defeat Republican Representative Mark Pettis, who was #1 on the Democrat's hit list in the Assembly. The WGO even helped the Democrats defeat Mark Green.
Whatever plans may lie ahead, we must also deal with WGO.
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