Will Giuliani consider the 2nd Amendment an individual right?

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Lone_Gunman

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Various pundits seem to think Ashcroft is going to leave as Attorney General, and Giuliani may be on the short list as his replacement.

Various republican supporters of Bush on this forum cited Ashcroft's opinion of the 2nd Amendment (ie, it is an individual right), as a pro-gun thing Bush had done, and a major reason to vote for him.

So considering that Giuliani seems a little anti-2nd amendment, do you think he will reverse this opinion, and if so, will it even matter?
 
I have found it interesting that nobody at THR has ever responded to my comments about the preamble to the BOR. (Nor any anti-gun type) The preamble explains the purpose. It speaks to restraining abuse of power by the state.

Thus my never-answered question: If the BOR is a set of amendments restraining the power of the central state, how can it simultaneously be a restraint on the people? How can the Second Amendment not be seen as a right, not to be infringed by an abusive state?

Ask Rudy.

And ask how a very few people, noted for their skill in word usage, could use "the people" as singular and individual part of the time and as collective, part of the time. Further, why would not the thoughts of the writers as to the meanings of the amendments not be pertinent to our own view of the meanings of the amendments? I.e., Jefferson's views about firearms.

Caveat: The writers did not see ownership/possession of firearms as an unlimited right. In the Anti-Federalist Papers, written in support of the concept of a Bill of Rights, ownership/possession would be denied those "of unsound mind" or of "ill repute".

Art
 
Preamble??? What Preamble???

http://www.harbornet.com/rights/lindat.html
Effective December 15, 1791
Articles in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution.

PREAMBLE
The conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution.
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Lone_Gunman said:
Various pundits seem to think Ashcroft is going to leave as Attorney General, and Giuliani may be on the short list as his replacement.

Various republican supporters of Bush on this forum cited Ashcroft's opinion of the 2nd Amendment (ie, it is an individual right), as a pro-gun thing Bush had done, and a major reason to vote for him.

So considering that Giuliani seems a little anti-2nd amendment, do you think he will reverse this opinion, and if so, will it even matter?
Click to expand...

A LITTLE anti-2nd Amendment? Is this like being a little pregnant? Giuliani is very anti-2nd Amendment. He filed suit against 26 gun makers - read
this speech by the good mayor and decide if he's a LITTLE against the 2nd Amendment.

Would it make a difference if he reverses the Ashcroft position that gun ownership is an individual right? It sure could.
 
Guiliani is kind of stuck and actually a poor candidate, since I watched George Bush endorse RKBA as "an individual right" (direct quote) in more than one of his campaign speeches. Giuliani would be a loose cannon for this administration. I don't think the party will want him hidden in the Cabinet anyway. He would be dangerous as a President but coud draw urban votes as a running mate.

Look for positions to be filled from "the Red States' and expect GW to be personally more comfortable with people from those areas. It's a loooong way from Texas to NY, even overlooking GWs actual residence history.

from nyc.gov

"In 1989, Giuliani entered the race for mayor of New York City as a candidate of the Republican and Liberal parties, losing by the closest margin in City history. However in 1993, his campaign focusing on quality of life, crime, business and education made him the 107th Mayor of the City of New York. In 1997 he was re-elected by a wide margin, carrying four out of New York City's five boroughs."

Giuliani's liberal direction should be carefully noted.
 
Bush would never appoint Guiliani as AG. Won't happen.

If Guiliani were AG you can bet he does not think you have any right to own guns.

Thank goodness his style is provincial and it won't play outside of NY. On the surface he may seem like a good potential Presidential Candidate.

He would make a great Democrat candidate.
 
"But even in the Second Amendment, it refers to firearms in the context of a well regulated militia, and well regulated is what we're trying to accomplish."

That quote pretty much says it all.
He also appears to have a problem with "cheap hotels".

I think the analogy he used is flawed. While most everyone owns and drives a car, not everyone owns a gun or even shoots. I think the "per capita" stats need to be adjusted to reflect actual gunowners instead of counting just guns.

If this guy didn't have access to a cheap motel, he would have to spend more on a finer establishment. This would have decreased his ability to purchase a gun and maybe bought a Ginsu knife instead. Obviously we need to outlaw "cheap hotels", say nothing less than what? $67?

Something about that analogy ain't right.

Vick
 
Bush would never appoint Guiliani as AG. Won't happen.
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Why not?

He is a popular figure in general with the masses, has experience as NY Attorney General, and will be easily confirmed by Congress.

I think he will end up the Repub VP in 2008.

By the way, the "a little anti 2nd Amendment" comment was sarcastic.

I still pose the question to those who made a big deal out of Ashcroft's opinion of the second amendment as an individual right... what do you think will happen when Bush picks Giuliani?
 
I think a better question is "what difference will it make?" Has the government stopped arresting and prosecuting people for federal firearms offenses while Ashcroft has been AG?
 
That's the REAL issue, FeebMaster......

As appealing (to some) as he may be, I've personally seen him interviewed recently on FNC where he demures the position......He's "really happy" running his financial conlulting firm with his NYC cronies, and not interested in any FedGov position. Though he indicated he would discuss if asked.....I believe his political aspiration days are over, and he prefers to be seen more as "coach" than "player"....a real non-issue, but time will tell.
 
When the Justice Department appealed on the Ermerson case, they argued (using the Clinton interpretation of the 2nd Amendment) that the 2nd Amendment does NOT extend an individual right to keep and bear arms. If Giuliani were the AG and he reserved the Ashcroft opinion, we could see more prosecutions/appeals by the justice dept.

More importantly, if Bush appoints Giuliani AG he would be telling gun owners "Thanks for the vote folks, now bend over". I don't believe Bush would do this, but on the other hand he has shown himself capable of making some really bad decisions.
 
Thus my never-answered question: If the BOR is a set of amendments restraining the power of the central state, how can it simultaneously be a restraint on the people? How can the Second Amendment not be seen as a right, not to be infringed by an abusive state?
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You're right, but the anti-RKBA argument is about the "scope" of the 2nd.

The argument goes that the 2nd only pertains to state militias. Militias which serve as a check on central government tyrrany instead of private gun owners.
 
indeed El Tejon

He's East Coast Eloi. In no way does he see the RKBA as an individual right.


I am a native NY'er & I'll never ever vote for him.
He would stink as AG.

We have to strike hard & often in the next four years.

The rino's are coming!
 
I can't find the article at the moment...but saw Giuliani quoted last week saying he's busy with his consulting business and uninterested in serving as AG.
 
rick_reno said:
A LITTLE anti-2nd Amendment? Is this like being a little pregnant? Giuliani is very anti-2nd Amendment. He filed suit against 26 gun makers - read
this speech by the good mayor and decide if he's a LITTLE against the 2nd Amendment.

Would it make a difference if he reverses the Ashcroft position that gun ownership is an individual right? It sure could.
Click to expand...

1. "The broad principle that there is an individual right to bear arms is shared by many Americans, including myself. I'm of the view that you can't take a broad approach to other rights, such as First Amendment rights, and then interpret the Second Amendment so narrowly that it could fit in a thimble. But I'm also of the view that there are limits on those rights. Just as you can't falsely shout fire in a crowded movie theater, you can put restrictions on who can own guns and how, when, and where they may be possessed."


___ Sen. Charles Schumer

2. "While some have argued that the Second Amendment guarantees only a 'collective' right of the States to maintain militias, I believe the Amendment's plain meaning and original intent prove otherwise. Like the First and Fourth Amendments, the Second Amendment protects the rights of 'the people,' which the Supreme Court has noted is a term of art that should be interpreted consistently throughout the Bill of Rights. ... Of course, the individual rights view of the Second Amendment does not prohibit Congress from enacting laws restricting firearms ownership for compelling state interests ... just as the First Amendment does not prohibit [government from legislating against] shouting 'fire' in a crowded movie theater. "


___ Attorney General John Ashcroft

Ashcroft sounded a lot like Chucky to me. :rolleyes:
 
Rudy is a liberal in most areas, and I see no reason to think that he would not be anti-gun.

I do not think that he has any chance of getting the Rep nomination for president.
Jerry
 
The "shouting fire in a theater" argument is SOOO lame. Making shouting "fire" illegal is the same as making murder illegal.

Applying that analogy for current restrictions on firearms would mean that the word "fire" would be banned from common usage, except for a few "fire marshalls" who would know and be able to use the word.

Possession of a firearm shouldn't be illegal, just like possession of a word isn't. It is the improper USE of a word or firearm that wrong. I can't shout "fire" in a theater, I can't mow down theater goers either. But I could use the word "fire" if there WAS a fire, just like I could use my CCW to stop an attack.
 
Giuliani might consider the 2nd as protecting an individual right. Of course, so did John Kerry. :barf:

"Shall not be infringed" doesn't mean "reasonable restrictions" and "common-sense limits" in the name of "public safety."

It appears both Chucky and Ashcroft are adept at "interpreting" the BoR out of existence. :(
 
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