Will K-38 Combat Masterpiece (Pre-M15) handle +P?
- Thread starter Doug.38PR
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XavierBreath
Member
Effective heat treatment of S&W cylinders occured around 1927 or so. I do not think a few +P rounds will destroy your K-38, as in the cylinder flying apart. Be aware that if it is nickel plated, you may shed nickel on the cylinder.
I don't think I would want to risk the long term effects of +P though. I have little doubt that a steady diet of +P ammo will cause accelerated wear. A K-38 is such a wonderful revolver, I would want to preserve that precision as long as possible.
These are my thoughts only, I have no hard evidence.
I don't think I would want to risk the long term effects of +P though. I have little doubt that a steady diet of +P ammo will cause accelerated wear. A K-38 is such a wonderful revolver, I would want to preserve that precision as long as possible.
These are my thoughts only, I have no hard evidence.
There is Plus-P and then some folks are making PLUS!!-P 
Modest use of Plus-P ammunition from the mainline makers is unlikely to cause problems. But extensive use will likely cause a condition called "end-shake" because the heavy cylinder will batter the end of the yoke barrel that it revolves on. This has nothing too do with the heat treatment of the cylinder. Those fine old pre-model number Combat Masterpieces are now about 50-plus years old or more. One of mine is one of the first, and I bought it brand new. It's still going strong on a diet of standard .38 Special loads. I plan to keep it that way. Those that feel underguned with anything less then Plus-P ammunition (the Old Fuff doesn't) should consider S&W's excellent and similar .357 Combat Magnum (Model 19 or 66).
Modest use of Plus-P ammunition from the mainline makers is unlikely to cause problems. But extensive use will likely cause a condition called "end-shake" because the heavy cylinder will batter the end of the yoke barrel that it revolves on. This has nothing too do with the heat treatment of the cylinder. Those fine old pre-model number Combat Masterpieces are now about 50-plus years old or more. One of mine is one of the first, and I bought it brand new. It's still going strong on a diet of standard .38 Special loads. I plan to keep it that way. Those that feel underguned with anything less then Plus-P ammunition (the Old Fuff doesn't) should consider S&W's excellent and similar .357 Combat Magnum (Model 19 or 66).
reason I ask is because I'd kinda like to get just a medium frame shooter made by a good brand like S&W that is easy to get fixed and worked onif something goes wrong for a good low price that can handle a frequent amount of +p ammo. I found a good K-38 Combat master at a local gun store with some hosterwear for $349. The action is factory tight.
I'd rather find something at an even better steal if I could like say $200 (finish doesn't really matter for my purposes...it can always be reblued or worked on some other day)
They also have a M-15 for $489 (more or less), but what turns my eye on the K-38 is 1) the price and 2) the hammer. I like the U shaped configuration of the old style hammer than the rough flat newer one.
I'd rather find something at an even better steal if I could like say $200 (finish doesn't really matter for my purposes...it can always be reblued or worked on some other day)
They also have a M-15 for $489 (more or less), but what turns my eye on the K-38 is 1) the price and 2) the hammer. I like the U shaped configuration of the old style hammer than the rough flat newer one.
Factory +P hasn't bothered any of my "pre model number" Smiths and I've been shooting a lot of ammo through various guns recently to answer this very question.
Most people will tell you (note above posts) that +P is bad. Hell, even S&W says it. But in my experience current factory +P is barely target ammo in terms of power. Federal, Winchester and Remington 125 grain +Ps only clock around 925 FPS from my 4" barrel guns and around 860 from the 2" pistols and I don't consider this to be powerful. Apparently some shooters do, which baffles me. When I shoot this ammo the cases fall from the gun without using the ejector and the cases are sooty, indicating that the pressure is too low and blow-back is occurring because the cases are not expanding to seal the chambers. This doesn't sound like +P to me.
Just yesterday I tested some PMC 125 +Ps and they clocked a pathetic 890 FPS from a 4" revolver and 795 FPS from a 2" M&P Smith (made in 1949 by the way and so far it shows no ill effects from all the hundreds of +Ps I have been firing through it). I also ran some Winchester 110 grain +P+ (note, +P+ not just +P) and it only registered 1100 FPS. I was looking for about 1300 with a 110 bullet at +P+ pressure but all I got was 1100. Whoop-dee-doo! I have hand loaded 110s to over 1400 from a 4" M&P. These were hot, too hot really, but even though I backed off from this load the gun shot them without complaint. The biggest problem was that the bullets hit way low. Happens with light bullets at high velocity.
I am told that some loads from outfits like Cor-Bon and others are much hotter but I haven't tried them out, yet. I know what my hand loads are like and they make mainstream +P look like the wimp it truly is and so far no trouble in any of my revolvers.
This discussion will never end, I guess. Everyone has an opinion and it seems I am in the minority when I say that any gun made by Colt, Ruger or Smith & Wesson after WW II (maybe before but I can't swear to it) will shoot all of the factory +P ammo you care to buy for it without any sign of adverse effect. At least, my guns aren't showing anything, yet, and I am trying to strain them. But it's hard to do with such wimpy loads like factory +P.
Bottom line is you do what makes you comfortable. If you believe that a 125 bullet at 925 FPS is just too much for your S&W K frame then don't use them. I have a pre-15 from around 1954 and I would not hesitate to put a couple thousand +Ps through it because I am convinced that nothing bad would happen. But that's my gun, you do what you think is best with yours.
Most people will tell you (note above posts) that +P is bad. Hell, even S&W says it. But in my experience current factory +P is barely target ammo in terms of power. Federal, Winchester and Remington 125 grain +Ps only clock around 925 FPS from my 4" barrel guns and around 860 from the 2" pistols and I don't consider this to be powerful. Apparently some shooters do, which baffles me. When I shoot this ammo the cases fall from the gun without using the ejector and the cases are sooty, indicating that the pressure is too low and blow-back is occurring because the cases are not expanding to seal the chambers. This doesn't sound like +P to me.
Just yesterday I tested some PMC 125 +Ps and they clocked a pathetic 890 FPS from a 4" revolver and 795 FPS from a 2" M&P Smith (made in 1949 by the way and so far it shows no ill effects from all the hundreds of +Ps I have been firing through it). I also ran some Winchester 110 grain +P+ (note, +P+ not just +P) and it only registered 1100 FPS. I was looking for about 1300 with a 110 bullet at +P+ pressure but all I got was 1100. Whoop-dee-doo! I have hand loaded 110s to over 1400 from a 4" M&P. These were hot, too hot really, but even though I backed off from this load the gun shot them without complaint. The biggest problem was that the bullets hit way low. Happens with light bullets at high velocity.
I am told that some loads from outfits like Cor-Bon and others are much hotter but I haven't tried them out, yet. I know what my hand loads are like and they make mainstream +P look like the wimp it truly is and so far no trouble in any of my revolvers.
This discussion will never end, I guess. Everyone has an opinion and it seems I am in the minority when I say that any gun made by Colt, Ruger or Smith & Wesson after WW II (maybe before but I can't swear to it) will shoot all of the factory +P ammo you care to buy for it without any sign of adverse effect. At least, my guns aren't showing anything, yet, and I am trying to strain them. But it's hard to do with such wimpy loads like factory +P.
Bottom line is you do what makes you comfortable. If you believe that a 125 bullet at 925 FPS is just too much for your S&W K frame then don't use them. I have a pre-15 from around 1954 and I would not hesitate to put a couple thousand +Ps through it because I am convinced that nothing bad would happen. But that's my gun, you do what you think is best with yours.
RON in PA
Member
Srigs: there is no reason why a model 15-4 cannot digest a good quantity of +P ammo. Any Smith 38 special revolver with a model number made post 1957-58 is OK with +P and that's from the manufacturer.
As for the original poster since your revolver is pre-model 15, hold-off.
As for the original poster since your revolver is pre-model 15, hold-off.
dbarale
Member
That sounds like a Ruger! A GP100 can be found around 300$ and will take any amount of any ammo you can put in it , including hot 357's.
Even better, the Speed/Service/Security Six series can still (but not for long) be found around 200$. Not quite as strong as a GP they are still capable of a steady diet of 357 and even the .38 versions can take all day shooting with +P+.
I actually know of one .38 police trade in Service Six that had its shambers reamed to .357 and has seen quite a bit of full loads. I DO NOT RECOMMEND DOING IT, but it's been done...
bpisler
Member
If it's in very good to excellent condition i would
not worry about a few +P's.I would stay away
from the Cor-bons and Buffalo bore +P's as they
tend to be quite a bit warmer than Win,Rem,etc.
not worry about a few +P's.I would stay away
from the Cor-bons and Buffalo bore +P's as they
tend to be quite a bit warmer than Win,Rem,etc.
phoglund
Member
Excellent choice! I've one of these as well and love the gun. Have fun with it! I'm feeling lonely for mine now as it's with a friend getting custom stocks built for it since it's a 150 series and aftermarket stocks for those are hard to find.
I would strongly recommend againsr +P loads in your Model #15 Masterpiece. You probably will not experience catastrophic failure, just accelerated wear. That was my duty weapon in the Air Force. And the Air Force ruined a lot of them using hot ammo. The steel in the revolver may be heat treated for superior strength and toughness, but the actual lock work and mechanical design will probably be battered after a few thousand rounds.
BluesBear
member
If by the term "actualy lock work" you are referring to the trigger, hammer, hand, and rebound slide, I challenge the accuracy of that remark.
S&W used EXACTLY the same trigger, hammer, hand, and rebound slide in the Model 19 (and Model 13) as they did in the Model 15. For that matter they're the same in the Model 10.
The trigger and rebound slide are also the same as used in the Models 27, 28, 29 & 57.
And for goodness sake we all know how fragile those guns are.
DWARREN123
Member
Call, write or E-mail S&W and ask them, the way to get the correct answer.
BRASSM- You're assuming that current factory +P ammo is hot. It isn't. See my post above regarding my actually shooting large amounts of +P as opposed to merely offering unproven theories or repeating what others have said.
Ron in PA- Yes, S&W uses the model number era as their dividing line but that's just for convenience. Truth is there is no difference in strength whatsoever between a pre-10 and a 10. All they did in 1957 was start stamping the model numbers on the frames, they made no improvements in steel or design to make the guns stronger. Please note that the two guns that I have been shooting large amounts of +P ammo through in my testing are both pre-model guns and I don't see where they are any less capable than a model marked revolver.
The +P myth lives on...
Ron in PA- Yes, S&W uses the model number era as their dividing line but that's just for convenience. Truth is there is no difference in strength whatsoever between a pre-10 and a 10. All they did in 1957 was start stamping the model numbers on the frames, they made no improvements in steel or design to make the guns stronger. Please note that the two guns that I have been shooting large amounts of +P ammo through in my testing are both pre-model guns and I don't see where they are any less capable than a model marked revolver.
The +P myth lives on...
fecmech
Member
"And the Air Force ruined a lot of them using hot ammo."
Brassm--What hot ammo did the Air Force use?? All I ever saw for .38's in the AF was the wimpy 130 gr ball ammo that did 800fps out of a 6" gun! I ran a Guard pistol team for some years and ran over 3K of mil spec ball thru my K-38. Pretty tame stuff. Nick
Brassm--What hot ammo did the Air Force use?? All I ever saw for .38's in the AF was the wimpy 130 gr ball ammo that did 800fps out of a 6" gun! I ran a Guard pistol team for some years and ran over 3K of mil spec ball thru my K-38. Pretty tame stuff. Nick
The USAF did state that one reason for wanting the 9mm was that they'd suffered excessive wear with Plus P .38's in their Model 15's.
I think the problem is that the yoke arm is relatively soft and batters, leading to cylinder endshake.
This was addressed in the M-66 .357 in the mid to late 1980's in the Model 66-3 and later guns. I don't know if it was ever applied to .38's. Maybe Supica and Nahas list the dash numbers if it occurred.
The USAF loads seem to have been specific to them, and had deeply seated bullets.
However, my unit in Denver (Lowry AFB) did buy High Velocity 150 grain ammo on the local commercial market due to shortages in the supply system.
This was before the 1974 introduction of standardized Plus P, and it was probably meant for .38/44 Heavy Duty guns. We had some Victory Models, but if there were ever problems, I didn't hear of them.
Lone Star
I think the problem is that the yoke arm is relatively soft and batters, leading to cylinder endshake.
This was addressed in the M-66 .357 in the mid to late 1980's in the Model 66-3 and later guns. I don't know if it was ever applied to .38's. Maybe Supica and Nahas list the dash numbers if it occurred.
The USAF loads seem to have been specific to them, and had deeply seated bullets.
However, my unit in Denver (Lowry AFB) did buy High Velocity 150 grain ammo on the local commercial market due to shortages in the supply system.
This was before the 1974 introduction of standardized Plus P, and it was probably meant for .38/44 Heavy Duty guns. We had some Victory Models, but if there were ever problems, I didn't hear of them.
Lone Star
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