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Will Somebody Just Show Me The Stopping Power!

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by golden, Mar 31, 2008.

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  1. golden

    golden Member

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    This started off as a reply in the recent .32ACP thread, but I decided it would get to far off the track.

    It was in reference to a dismisal of the STOPPING POWER statistics compiled by MARSHALL & SANOW.


    I would not be so fast to dismiss the work of MARSHALL & SANOW, especially based on the work or lack of work by FACKLER!

    The stats issued by MARSHALL & SANOW have matched the experience of some other writers working independantly and several major law enforcement agencies.

    1. M & S (MARSHALL & SANOW) listed the .357 magnum as the most effective round until the debut of the high velocity .40 caliber rounds. The U.S. Border Patrol and several state police agencies used this round and I never read or heard of any complaints about the stopping power.
    PLEASE NOTE: this round would be a poor manstopper if Martin FACKER'S deep penetration criteria were valid. Many of the 125 grain JHP loads pentrate 10 inches or less.
    Also, note that the .357 SIG round for semi auto's is now growing in popularity with law enforcement agencies who are finding it offers similar stopping power to the .357 magnum revolver round.

    2. The .40 S&W round did not earn much of a reputation until the 155 grain JHP was released. It was developed by for the U.S. Border Patrol after extensive testing based on actual gunfights. The Border Patrol has more experience in gunfights that ALL OTHER FEDERAL AGENCIES PUT TOGETHER.
    Since the 155 grain load was adopted, I have not read or heard of any complaints about stopping power. It does not penetrate very deeply, but stops opponents more effectively than any other caliber at the moment.

    Note, the I&NS which the U.S. Border Patrol was a part of, permitted officers to carry privately owned SIG-220 .45ACP pistols. If the .40 S&W did not do the job, these people along with all the former .357 magnum carriers, would not be quiet about it.

    3. The 10 m.m. auto round fires a heavier bullet than the .40 S&W at the same or even higher velocities. It therefore, based on the deeper penetration criteria should be the ultimate police round. However, I have read it is being dropped by the few agencies that I have heard were using it. According to the M & S critics, this should not be happening.
    According to the books published by MARSHALL & SANOW, this round is LESS EFFECTIVE than the .40 S&W (NOTE THAT IN ORDER TO INCREASE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE 10m.m. OVER THE .40 S&W, THE SAME LIGHTWEIGHT BULLETT COULD BE DRIVEN TO HIGHER VELOCITIES THAN THE .40 S&W, BUT RECOIL WOULD BE UNACCEPTABLE TO MOST SHOOTERS). If
    MARSHALL & SANOW are wrong about the effectiveness of lighter, faster bullets, then why are they working so well for the the U.S.B.P. and other agencies that have adopted this load.

    4. M & S also list the .38 Special +P load as effective 75 to 79% of the time. Those police departments that have used this load, Miami-Dade and FBI among others, have also found it effective.

    So what has FACKLER published. If deeper penetrating rounds worked so much better, there would be a huge body of evidence by now. Where is it?
    Every time FACKLER makes a comment, I note that it is a personal attack or a criticism of how the data was collected or analized. but there are NO PERCENTAGES FROM FACKLER OR ANY OF THE M & S CRITICS!
    If somebody who claims that M & S are wrong, please present YOUR EVIDENCE! I would love to see the CORRECTLY ANALIZED method that the M & S work is supposed to be lacking in.

    I am just really curious to see SOME FACTS to go along with all the insults to the work done by MARSHALL & SANOW.

    I note that the FIREARMS TACTICAL does not publish any statistics on stopping power. Why not? If MARSHALL & SANOW are wrong, gather your own stats and state your criteria. If M & S are wrong, the stats will show it. But, that has not happened. It is just the same old personal attacks.

    Just my opinion

    Jim
     
  2. DougDubya

    DougDubya Member

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    Marshall's studies came under fire under the fact that Marshall excluded multiple round failures to stop, which doesn't quite make sense to me.

    However, independant studies show that, as a ballpark figure, Marshall tends to be right. Marshall also doesn't work closely with Sanow, since Sanow's a little too iffy in his speculative approach to jello-junkie work.

    Also, Fackler himself often gets taken out of context for those who would like to see the 9mm or smaller rounds relegated to peanut gallery paper punching, rather than for defensive use, and Ayoob did an excellent article utilizing Fackler's own studies and evaluation of rounds in comparison to Marshall's studies, and when there were divergences, he came up with compromise rounds.
     
  3. outerlimit

    outerlimit Member

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    I don't know, I was pretty happy with the performance of my .45 today. A couple of 230gr. +p flyers took big chunks out of a target post (a verticle log) that 9mm's were basically bouncing off of. I used to be big on 9mm, but I'm liking it less and less these days and I'm starting to really wonder about the whole energy vs. momentum argument. There seems to be something to it.
     
  4. Halo

    Halo Member

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    You sure they were bouncing off, or punching through? Ironically one of the main criticisms of 9mm FMJ is that it penetrates too much.
     
  5. Ridgerunner665

    Ridgerunner665 Member

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    Stopping power is way over rated. I know (or knew) 2 guys that would tell you a 22 is deadly (if they were alive)...1 was shot in the neck, a 260 lb. man in prime condition, and that had been shot a few times before and lived to tell about it...not this time...killed him in about 7 seconds.
    (This was a bar fight)

    The other a smaller guy (190 lbs. or so) 3 rounds of 22 to the chest...also dead within 10 seconds. (This was a fight over a girl...it happened in the street)

    No charges were filed in either case...now do I live in a rough neighborhood or what???

    The point...shot placement.


    Momentum and penetration is another matter...and both depend on just exactly what you are shooting...some rounds do better on hard barriers (light and fast here)...others do better on soft barriers (slow and heavy here).
     
  6. johnle

    johnle Member

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    i think all this stopping power research needs to be thrown out, each human being is a variable.

    you shoot accurately and you shoot as many rounds into the BG until the BG gives up or checks outs. If it's one shot, great...but you can never say and guarantee that each person will go down when shot in the same place.

    People die from the simplest things and they survive things that aren't survivable and even the most experienced doctors will shrug at you. Human beings are strange and unpredictable. Where as ballistics gel is not, it doesn't have veins, bones, blood, fat, organs or fat and it'll react the same every day all day.
     
  7. RobertFBurnett

    RobertFBurnett Member

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    IIRC after watching guntalktv one of the Gunsite instructors (I am going to paraphrase with the understanding that I am simplifying a 2 minute video, by a professional instructor, at a good school) talked about the "Gunsite Failure Drill" you put two shots in center of mass...and then immediately aim for right between the eyes...if its there, shoot it. If you don't have a head shot...shoot what you can when you can.

    I personally prefer not to go by one shot kills, .22s are lethal, and alot of ammo is even more lethal in a trained pair of hands (which mine are not, but i'm working on it). I'd rather take some SD courses with my 9mm (Or a .32 in your case) than pretend my 12 gauge is going to win me a fight based on power alone.

    imho+my Buck-0-5,

    RFB
     
  8. makarovnik

    makarovnik Member

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    Big heavy bullets at over 1400 FPS should get the job done.

    I wonder why more military forces don't issue .22LR calibers for their sidearms?

    A .22LR bullet can be deadly but I think a 10MM kills 'em faster most of the time.
     
  9. Ridgerunner665

    Ridgerunner665 Member

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    Big, heavy, bullets at over 1400 fps...what are you carrying...a 45-08???

    10MM kills 'em faster most of the time...thats true...most of the time. But the 10mm is not the top rated 1 shot stopper...because it has too much velocity and too much bullet (overpenetration). The 357 mag with lighter bullets does a better job because of more violent expansion. The 45 acp (my personal preference) does it with frontal area (this displaces more tissue than most give it credit for...but its also known to overpenetrate in soft tissue). The 40 S&W is a pretty good round...decent size (caliber), and not as much speed as the 10mm (less penetration). I love a good friendly argument.
     
  10. golden

    golden Member

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    10m.m.

    Kidding Right?

    Did you forget the RECOIL of a heavy bullet at 1,400 fps. If you can handle it, fine. I would bet that 10 % or less of shooters can handle a high recoil 10m.m. load in a normal shooting scenario.

    When I qualify with my .40 S&W, I manage it without any problems. If I had to handle the MUCH heavier recoil of a hot 10 m.m. load, I do not know if I could qualify.

    Have you ever tried to shoot a qualification drill with your 10 m.m.? Would you carry this gun if you did qualify. I want a lightweight gun that would hurt my back at the end of a 12 hour shift. That means recoil is an issue. The 10 m.m. is out for that reason alone.

    Also, if the .40 S&W is good for 94 % stopping power, how much better is the 10m.m.? The more powerful .44 magnum is LESS EFFECTIVE. All the extra energy just goes to waste as overpenetration.

    One the criticism that MARSHALL did not use multiple hits is legitimate. So why doesn't someone else study it? I am not being sarcastic. It would make for some interesting work.

    Jim
     
  11. Matt-J2

    Matt-J2 Member

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    I only have one thing to say on this matter:

    When I'm looking for a one shot stop, I'll shoot at least 3 times. One of them is bound to stop the BG.
     
  12. Ridgerunner665

    Ridgerunner665 Member

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    Well said Matt. And a good idea too.
     
  13. USMCDK

    USMCDK Member

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    I am not trying to be a jerk, but can you give me a magazine/website that has an article or two, to back this statement up. I only say this because this thread is titled show me the... so now I am asking of you the same thing. Thank you

    Another +1 for Massad, god I would love to meet this person...

    One: those gents were right about them being deadly if you are at close range and that's why it's an Assassin's bullet. It's used as such in European coutries where they have those mass gathering with some CIP kinda person with political view and decides to walk throught the mass crowd only to have a .22lr round logged into his head at two inches away. the bullet never leaves turning his brain into jello pudding. BTW what was the caliber or mm that shot him in the neck???

    Matt to quote a man in our very distant past, for what you have just said. "Speak softly, but carry a BIG stick"
     
  14. golden

    golden Member

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    Maybe-Maybe Not

    Matt,

    Are you talking 3 shots in a failure to stop drill or are you talking about 3 shots into a target that keeps on coming because he can no longer feel your shots and even though he may be dying, he is still coming at you and maybe shooting ?

    The killer in the Miami massacre, was already dead from a wound he had received, but he still went on to shoot several more FBI agents.

    Jim
     
  15. golden

    golden Member

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    USMCDK,

    The two large agencies that I have read adopting the .357 SIG are Texas State Police and Secret Service. I cannot tell you where I read it.
     
  16. USMCDK

    USMCDK Member

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    okay I'll take it. If you can try to find out and let me know that would be great or is it one of those If I told you I'd have too... kinda things??? LoL
     
  17. Ridgerunner665

    Ridgerunner665 Member

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    USMCDK,
    They were both shot with a 22...then one the neck was one of those neat lil Beretta's with the flip up barrel (cant remember the model name)...the other was a Hi Standard 9 shot revolver.

    The guy with the Beretta fired 6 rounds...only one hit him from about 10 yards away....David had already kicked Jesse's a$$ and was walking away when Jesse shot him. If I had been paying closer attention he may not have shot him...but by the time I saw the gun it was too late...I did however thoroughly stomp him in the face (he was still on the floor) and get the gun away from him...David was a good friend of mine.

    The other guy that got shot with the revolver...coincidentally named David too...he deserved it. 3 rounds fired...all 3 were in the heart.
     
  18. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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  19. Phil DeGraves

    Phil DeGraves Member

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    "Another +1 for Massad, god I would love to meet this person..."

    He's a member here. PM him.

    You can't separate stopping power from the user. Back in the day when .45 and .357 were thought to be king, who was using them? The gun guys. The people that couldn't shoot preferred the 9mm and the .38 because they were easier to qualify with. If you gave all the gun guys who practice a lot .32s and the non-shooters who don't practice .45s and get five years of data, the .32 would end up as being STATISTICALLY more effective. Why? because the users were more effective.
    I think what can be said is that a good hit with a FMJ .45 is probably better than the same hit with a FMJ 9mm because of the larger diameter wound channel. Of course, if they are both in the eye, it probably won't make a bit of difference.
     
  20. DougDubya

    DougDubya Member

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    Quoted for truth.

    One thing I noticed about Chuck Taylor is that he never had a problem with .45 ACP FMJ ball. For five instances, he got five heart shots and five one-shot stops.

    With such skill and accuracy, I'm fairly certain he'd have been able to do the same with a .380 or a 9mm, if they came in the same ergonomic package as a 1911.

    Clearly a demonstration of the real factors in stopping power being The User, the User's Interface with to Tool, with the size of the nail proving irrelevant.
     
  21. CWL

    CWL Member

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    Fackler doesn't know what he's talking about? You mean the Army Surgeon/Pathologist commissioned by the military & then FBI to study wound ballistics? The same Martin Fackler who has personally operated on gunshot victims in the battlefield as well as personally autopsied countless gunshot victims? This must be the same Fackler that publishes his findings in military, FBI and medical journals.

    Marshall & Sanow, two guys (one LEO) with no medical, science,statistical, ballistic training who, without the sanctioning of any LE Agency, 'claims' to have gotten access to medical data of all gunshot wounds from police and medical/hospitals? How? Strange that they have never released any of their study data.

    Strange how my mother, a retired surgical pathologist, tells me that in her days of examining gunshot victims, would have to weigh the bullet + any fragments to try and guess what kind of bullet(s) they were. Repeat, surgeons/pathologists cannot easily-tell what bullet caliber & weight was used shootings (but M&S is certain down to grain weight).

    If you are such a believer in M&S, all you need is one .357 Magnum round in your gun. Since it has 95% chance one-shot stop rating. :rolleyes:
     
  22. DougDubya

    DougDubya Member

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    CWL - one point or two

    Caliber and bullet weight from these shootings tend to be easy to find, in regards to issued ammunition and firearm on the part of the shooter. Any information without photographs and weight records of the recovered round was excised from the study.

    Second - Your statement of one .357 Magnum being needed pretty much goes against Evan Marshall's personal philosophy to carry a minimum of three handguns, and Marshall's self-defense plan of firing his handguns as he makes his way to his defensive RIFLE.

    Third - Marshal and Sanow are not one homogenous being, and Marshall no longer works with the man from JELLO.
     
  23. mpmarty

    mpmarty Member

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    Just because it seems harder to shoot well is no reason to give up on 200gr bullets at over 1200fps out of a pistol with fifteen round flush fitting magazines. The 10mm has been demonized as "too much recoil" by the same fools who shoot 357 magnums in medium frame revolvers. I have three 10mm pistols and they are quite capable of doing .35 second "splits" on double taps and staying in the "A" zone. Perhaps the three Tanfoglio all steel pistols are a bit heavy, even the compact model, but as nightstand guns they are hard to beat. For carry I like something around a pound and a half loaded so my CCW is a Taurus PT145 with 185gr Barnes flyin ash trays but this is a matter of giving up range and power for something that I pack all day every day. In a real gunfight, give me my 10mm and stand back, there is no such thing as too much power in a basically underpowered handgun compared to a real firearm such as an M14. And if the .40 is such a wonderful "manstopper" how come all the PDs are issuing ARs and such? Face it, a .40 S&W is nothing but a poor compromise on size, recoil and power which was forced on the FBI due to their female agents inability to deal with a 10mm.
     
  24. CWL

    CWL Member

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    DougDubya,
    When people talk "stopping power" they are quoting from the book made famous by Marshal and Sanow. Whether they are no-longer affiliated, their names will always be tied-together.

    Also, the statistcs presented in their book, listed stopping-power % for every single design, caliber and wt. available for sale at that time. I sincerely doubt that every single caliber and type of bullet ever made was not-only issued by a LE Agency BUT had also been used in a documented shoot.

    Once again, everyone would like to see the raw data. Based on what I know about the medical profession and how police handle shootings (especially officer-involved), NOBODY gets the information unless directly involved.

    Lastly, I just took a look at your link, you need to talk to your publisher. In your next action book, for the cover art, make sure that the model has his finger off-of the trigger! ;)
     
  25. Ridgerunner665

    Ridgerunner665 Member

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    Why must everybody try to justify their chosen favorite...there many good ones...what works for you may not work for me. Having said that...I like my commander length/officers framed 1911 in 45 acp...why???
    #1-Because it will get the job done...without a doubt.
    #2- Because I can hit golf balls at 25 yards with it.
    #3- I can empty a several mags very fast, into a small target.
    #4- Ammo is easy to find.
    #5- Its got lot if history behind it...and its still one of the most popular calibers there is...for obvious reasons.
    #6- I like big holes.
    #7- Real men carry .45's (had to throw some fuel on the fire :))
     
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