Win. WinClean Brass questions???

[crewchief]

First let me start by saying I am sorry if this has been addressed before, but I have searched and not found the info I am looking for.

Now that I have that out of the way I have been reloading 45acp for awhile now and today I went down to the local wallyworld with the wife. While there I stopped by sporting goods and figured I would pick up some WWB as I find it more economical sometimes to by that and fire through it and save the brass than actually purchacing brass on it's own. Plus I can get lazy and wan't something cheap to fire off for a quick fix in the yard .

Well after I got home I noticed that this was not regular WWB but the new WinClean ammo they came out with. The box and price ($12.80 for 50) looked the same as the original WWB so I thought no big deal. Then later on I went out to the workshop where I do all my loading and pulled out the new ammo to take some measurements to make sure there was not a differance as far as the brass being reloadable.

As you probably guessed by now to my surprise I came to realize that these rounds used a small pistol primer . Now I normaly reload 185gr. FP with some bullseye or AA at verying grains (dependent on the mood i am in) but have not a clue on if there is going to be a trimendous differance in the amount of powder that I will use on these cases with a small pistol primer. I do have some small primers as I also load .38spl as well, but I was wondering if any of you fellow High Roaders have reloaded these perticular cases and at what grains? I really don't care on what brand you are using for powder as I have many and probably will use the same, but I am more interested in the effects of using a small primer in a .45acp case, as in burn rates and pressure differences if any.

Thank you for your time in reading this long post,

Crewchief

 

[VonFatman]

crewchief,
I really do not appreciate WW coming out with this "morphodite" case.

It's going to get someone hurt when they try to jam a large primer into a too small primer pocket (if it has not already happened).

It seems to me an instance where WW wanted to cut corners and save money making up this cleaner ammo.

I pitch every one of these cases. In fact, I'm also peeved because I have had to go thru my stash (large stash) of 45 ACP brass to ensure I do not have any of this type case mixed in with normal 45 ACP brass.

I'm sorry I do not have any recommendations for reloading the stuff...you may get a reply from some here who have tried. You may wish to go to WW's website, they may have re-loading information for you...if so, I imagine it would be for WW powders.

Good luck.

Bob

 

[Jim Watson]

If you only have the one box, I would not think it worth fooling with. If you have or expect to get a lot, or just want to tinker around, load it up with a middle of the road powder charge. Velocity will be less than normal but it will shoot. If you are loading light target ammo, you might have to increase the charge a little for reliable function. The loads I have tried worked fine.

If you ask Winchester they will tell you not to reload it. Some nonsense about the cases not being as thick as normal. But they weigh within a grain of standard so I don't know where the reduction in brass is.

 

[crewchief]

Thanks for the replys guys. I actually bought 3 boxs of the stuff not noticing the differance at the time of purchace and with Wallyworld being so finicky on ammo purchaces I know I am stuck with it. Oh well, I think that I will just shoot it up today and maybe hold on to one box worth of brass to tinker around with. Although that comment about the wall thickness has me a little concerned I will make sure to save these if i reload for the P90 as I think it is the safer gun for testing handloads.

Thanks anyways,

Crewchief

 

[The Bushmaster]

Hey Crewchief....Why don't you experiment with those cases and let us know what you find out. Do you have a cronograph? I have never seen those cases. Was that W-W's or were they Winchester's. I have some Winchester .45 ACP cases with the big primer pocket and big flash holes. But they can be treated just like the regular ones with no problems. If I had them I would try them with CCI-500's then try them with CCI-550's. Concidering the size difference between a Large pistol primer and a small pistol primer I would think that a small magnum pistol primer might be better, but I don't know. Keep us informed as to the out come and be careful as if you didn't know in the first place or you wouldn't have posted here about it.

 

[bobfather99]

My boss spoke with a Winchester rep at the IWA show in Germany a few years back about this subject. He was told they switched to a small primer because large heavy metal free primers had spotty ignition. I use an auto reamer on 45acp at work, they get rejected by the machine, and go into the scrap bin. As was posted above, large primers in a small pocket is a BIG no-no!!!!

They can be handloaded, however... Maybe you could load them separately from the others. Good Luck!!

 

[Black Snowman]

I've found various brands of brass marked NT (Non Toxic) in 9mm and 40 S&W and they appear to meet all the normal specs for the brass and reloaded without incident. The differant primer size on the 45 ACP does seem strange. My guess is that when producing the Non-Toxic ammo it was cheaper to change the brass than it was to start a seperate production run of large non-toxic primers.

They probably don't want you reloading it simply to avoid liability of any kind. Such as attempting to use LP primers in them as was mentioned earlier.

 

[stans]

I have on many occasions voiced my opposition to Winchester's use of small pistol primers in their 45 ACP WinClean. I think it is only a matter of time before they switch all of their 45 ACP to small primers. It certainly makes good economic sense for them to have only one size of primer, but it makes for a huge headache for both the commercial and the home reloader to have to watch for these odd ball cases.

 

[Jim Watson]

Snowman,
Winchester made large lead-free primers for a while. Used in the brass with large flash holes.

Bushmaster,
I have loaded small primer NTs with regular and magnum small pistol primers. The magnum primers will increase the velocity with the same powder charge part way back to large primer, all the way, or even higher. You really need a chronograph to fine tune loads. When I accumulate enough to bother with, I'll just use sandard primers and a standard load and shoot them up someplace hard to recover the brass.

The legend in American Handgunner was that the lead-free priming compound generated a faster pressure rise than styphnate. So they started out with large flash holes to vent the burn into the case. And now have gone to small primers with less mix. They are said to be crimped but the few I have had were not crimped enough to require reaming or swaging.

 

[RugerNo]

The real take on the large flash holes was to aid the weak pressure, non toxic primer to reliably ignite the powder. No problem until Joe Baggadonuts reloads this brass AND his powder of choice PARTIALLY plugs the flash hole. Remember, we use canister powders not the OEM type powders. All kinds of problems can arise with various degrees of consequences. Not belaboring that point, but Olin had the same type problem in some Shotgun shells in the early 70's. They made changes and adjusted after a few damaged guns. This information is accurate and was relayed by a now retired indvidual from Olin.
A few years back when the questions of reloadabilty of the large flash hole cases started hitting the old Shooters board, we had a sound discussion on some inherent dangers. It appears the small primer is a solution to a "problem".
I have to ask, what's 10 bucks worth of brass in relation to possible injuries to a human? His words at the time were to 'Trash'em'.

 

[Jim Watson]

But Winchester OKed reloading the large flashhole brass.

If they are so concerned about us dunces reloading their trick ammo, I wonder why don't they use Berdan primers like Blazer? Once they set up, it would be cheaper and if the mix is weaker, a Berdan primer holds more compound than Boxer.

 

[crewchief]

I will do some "experimenting" with this brass and I use that term cautiously. Right now I am not a big boy reloader as I only use a single stage RCBS press and generally take my time reloading in small amounts. I usually only reload about 500 rounds in a given session and no I don't have a chrono right now.

We are kind of country with a couple of 100 acres of corn field for a range and have railroad posts in the ground to mount two throwers and stuff. I just want to see if I can produce a good consistant practace ammo with this stuff.

If I come up with a consistant "recipe" I can email it to one of you guys that has a chrono for further testing. Also that was a good point about the powder maybe getting lodged in the flash hole and not producing a full burn. Makes me wonder if I shoud use a cylinder type of powder over ball. I never really paid attention that closely to powder shape before, this will actually give me a reason, and a reason to buy more powder to the wife .

Give me about a week or so to come up with something, or if you beat me to it please PM me with your results.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Yes sir Jim Watson. You do have to have a chronograph (Thanks for the spelling). I use a Pact Mod 1.

 

[BluesBear]

Winchester told me to use the same loading data as for large pistol primers.

I have only reloaded two boxes of WinClean cases.

50 rounds with a standard load of Unique.
50 rounds with a standard load of Bullseye.
230gr FMJ.
CCI 500 primers.

All went well. I could tell no difference between the same loads in regular W-W brass. Shot to the same point of aim at 25 yards.

If things ever get back to semi-normal I'll do further testing.

 

[alex-v.]

A buddy is a commercial reloader. He uses the small pistol primer and his regular loading. The velocities were enough when he tested some over a chronograph. Last I checked he stopped buying them from shooters because of the hassle of seperating them out before his crews did the loading. He still takes them from the indoor ranges and whenever he has several 100 thousand he will load them all up.

I have been seperating them out and will probably toss them. There are 10,000 pieces of 45ACP in the garage and only 75 or so of them are small primer.

 

[alex-v.]

A buddy is a commercial reloader. He uses the small pistol primer and his regular loading. The velocities were enough when he tested some over a chronograph. Last I checked he stopped buying them from shooters because of the hassle of seperating them out before his crews did the loading. He still takes them from the indoor ranges and whenever he has several 100 thousand he will load them all up.

I have been seperating them out and will probably toss them. There are 10,000 pieces of 45ACP in the garage and only 75 or so of them are small primer.

 

[No_Brakes23]

Damn, I just read about this in a magazine.

And to think I have been proudly saving all my .45 and .380 NT brass for my dad to reload.

I am no longer enthralled with WinClean, (Although I have definitely enjoyed firing it.) Any suggestions for a similar round to switch to? I want to keep the brass for reloading, and also be able to go to Non-Wolf ranges.