Win92 buttstock: why crescent steel brute?

[jamesjames]

And I handled it, Craig. This is a thing. Sorry to ruffle your traditional feathers.

 

[doubleh]

After rotator cuff surgery you will learn to put almost any rifle with some recoil inside your shoulder. It smarts when you get whopped on one of those christmas tree thingies they stick in your shoulder to tie the stitches to. I do it with all my rifles now so it's a habit.

 

[SwampWolf]

My vexing questions is this: Why, why, WHY would manufacturers continue to build this rifle today with a crescent steel buttstock?

Mostly, I think, because a lot of us appreciate a classic-styled stock on a "traditional" lever-action rifle. And because a gracefully curved, crescent-shaped butt is a beautiful rendition of yesteryear on the Western frontier.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I think that the manufacturers have forgotten why they originally put simple crescent butt plates on carbines.
My understanding is that simple crescent butt stocks helped in maintaining the shouldered position of a carbine when fired from a moving horse.
Not a major concern nowadays.
Extended crescents, on the other hand, are designed for old-style off-hand target shooters.

 

[cdb1]

And because a gracefully curved, crescent-shaped butt is a beautiful rendition of yesteryear on the Western frontier.

A gracefully curved, crescent-shaped butt will always be an object of beauty, even on a firearm.

 

[DPris]

They do look cool.
They just don't work as good as they look once you shoulder & fire 'em.
Denis

 

[Slamfire]

I think that the manufacturers have forgotten why they originally put simple crescent butt plates on carbines.
My understanding is that simple crescent butt stocks helped in maintaining the shouldered position of a carbine when fired from a moving horse.
Not a major concern nowadays.
Extended crescents, on the other hand, are designed for old-style off-hand target shooters.

Some rifles still come with crescent butt plates. This is a 1976 Anschutz M1413. The buttplate is rather primitive by today's standards, but the essentials are there.






This rifle is being used primarily prone with a sling , but you can see, with the palm rest, this was also built to support three position shooting. The buttplate on this rifle is adjustable for height and the crescent is held in by a bolt, and it can be circularly adjusted. I think it makes a difference on paper as it does promote a consistent stock weld. But I also have several flat butt Smallbore prone rifles, and when I am in the groove, shoot good prone with sling groups with them.





I shoot slightly higher scores with the M1413 than any other configuration, it might be due to the weight, I love the set trigger, of course the adjustable cheeck piece makes a difference, it is real hard to prove, one way or another the buttplate makes much of a difference prone. But it could offhand, never tried, but it could. I was always careful about locating my service and match rifles in the same spot when I shot 200 yard offhand in NRA XTC competition. You can see the impacts moving if you allowed the butt to move up or down.

 

[25-20 WCF]

The “cresent buttplate” was designed to be mounted on the bicep, not on the shoulder. If used this way with the moderate-recoiling chamberings common at the time, recoil is not bad and the rifle is securely mounted to the body. Accuracy was paramount, but with the modern heavily-recoiling chamberings it is not optimum.


.

 

[lysanderxiii]

The firearm industry is greatly resistant to change. It has its own corporate structure, the guys at the top do not understand their customers, and they just duplicate previous practice. Corporate executives dislike change, what they want is a guaranteed profit level, no conflict, and no competition. Rocking the boat will get you fired! Take a look at the movie industry as an example. If a movie is a hit, there are up to, five follow on versions.

My major complaint is the 1:38 twist rate on 44 Magnum rifles. It is too slow for bullets greater than 240 grain. However, because that is what was done, it becomes what will be.

The culture of the customer base does not help. There are entire forums where the posters have made a religion of "mil spec". Specially, the M14 rifle forums. I have asked makers why they don't make their receivers from an improved steel over the 8620 that the military used. The reason is, the customer base wants Mil Spec. I also asked an action maker, who was making modern versions of 19th century BP rifles, why he was using 8620 and not something like 4140 or 4340. His customers wanted a case coloring finish and they could not get that with 4140. To the customer, a metallurgically inferior steel is better because it has a pretty surface finish.

Well, I used to carry mechanical watches because I liked the ticking noise, so no one is perfect.

Just out of curiosity, what steel would you suggest and why?

 

[Jeff Burgess]

You ought to shoot this M38 in 7.62x54r with this steel buttplate.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I see the question has been answered sufficiently, so don't need to chime in too.

I will add though, that many, many years ago I had a Winchester Model 1894, chambered for 30/30. I found it at a roadside flea market. I knew absolutely nothing about old rifles, but bought it anyway. I can tell you that rifle hurt like hell every time I pulled the trigger. It was a cut down rifle model, with a crescent butt plate, a half magazine, and the barrel had been shortened to about 20 inches. It was many years later that I learned to shoot crescent butted rifles as described, with the crescent encircling the bicep, not mounted on the meaty part of the shoulder.

I wish I still had that rifle, so I could shoot it correctly.

 

[CraigC]

I think that the manufacturers have forgotten why they originally put simple crescent butt plates on carbines.
My understanding is that simple crescent butt stocks helped in maintaining the shouldered position of a carbine when fired from a moving horse.
Not a major concern nowadays.
Extended crescents, on the other hand, are designed for old-style off-hand target shooters.

Carbines don't have crescent buttplates, they have the carbine buttplate. Crescent buttplates go on rifles. The carbine buttplate is more curved on both ends specifically so that they are easier and quicker to shoulder.

 

[Slamfire]

Just out of curiosity, what steel would you suggest and why?

First cut is 4340. An examination of Charpy impact testing shows the amount of energy it takes to shear 4340 at ambient is much higher than 8620. Then, a comparison at negative temperatures shows 4340 takes several times the amount of energy. Charpy impact testing is a good predictor of fatigue lifetime. Rifle bolts and receivers are subjected to impact loads. Steels that are brittle will fail sooner than later. Strength is important as whether it will support the load, but toughness, in my opinion, is more important if you want something that will hold up to many stress cycles, given that the steel is strong enough to support the rated load.

A real technical evaluation would have to be conducted as a Charpy impact test is a first order evaluation. To see how a real professional examined 8620 against 9310, look at SA-TR19-1219, 19 Feb 1965, "Investigation of Case Carburized 9310H Steel" I found it on DTIC years ago, if you are interested in the topic, it makes for a great "Go By".

 

[Slamfire]

no text

 

[jamesjames]

OP here. Finished in-letting and fitting a model 94 butt stock on my Rossi 92, chambered in .44 magnum. After preliminary testing I can assure all that the higher comb and addition of recoil pad make this a plinker instead of a bruiser. At 50 yards off hand, 2nd shot broke the carriage bolt holding the AR500 steel plate to the target stand (direct hit). 4th shot spun the plate hanger around the cross bar. Sights are on and the rifle is a keeper and a joy to shoot. Regardless of traditional styling, I will modify a rifle to shoot better for me. Mission accomplished.