Winchester 1873 in .44-40 ammo problem

[SixxshootinSam]

Hey guys,
I recently was gifted an original 1873 winchester in .44-40.
I bought some snap caps along with a box of ultramax ammo in same caliber for it to cycle through and get a feel for it.

Problem was, it seats the bullet just fine in the chamber, but upon pulling the level back down to close the action, it won't close all the way.

The lever gets stuck. I pushed fairly hard, and it clipped off the edge of the rim on all the caps. So it -can- close, but only when forced and also messing up the casing. Seems the issue could be that there is a small portrusion on the bottom of the breechbolt base that clips off the rim as its pushed into it, but I think it's strange that both the snap caps and the real ammo have the same issues.

Some pictures to make explaining it easier. If anyone knows the issue here, I would be much appreciative.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

That rim looks too thick for starters. Try some real ammo when it's safe to do so and I think the problem will go away.

 

[lysanderxiii]

First, you should not be 'forcing' anything on a 120 year old rifle.

Second, I think your extractor is not snapping over the rim.

And third, I would have a competent gunsmith take it apart and give it a once-over the ensure everything under the side-plates is in good shape.

 

[Steve S.]

Agree with last post; appears that the extractor is "stiff" or stuck and not forgiving when snapping onto the rim, thus the force to overcome the cartridge rim when trying to close the lever - rust, gunk or both maybe - neat rifle though.

 

[Malamute]

You may break the small tab off the bottom of the bolt if you force it. It does sound like the extractor is stuck. Getting some penetrating oil working on it in its slot in the bolt should help, or be a good start.

Theres some pretty up to speed guys on the leverguns forum that may know more, like Steve from Steves Gunz. He posts under Nate Kiowa Jones

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/index.php

 

[Jim K]

Make sure there is nothing in the chamber that is causing the round to stick (like maybe a headless case or part of one). Then try some real ammo, but hold off firing until you give the barrel and chamber a good cleaning. Use light "cowboy" loads if possible. Also a good idea to check the headspace. Those rifles have a pretty weak lockup and headspace problems, resulting in case head separation, are pretty common.

Jim

 

[lysanderxiii]

I would stick to black powder.....(or equivalent black powder substitutes)

When was it made?

 

[35 Whelen]

You don't need snap caps to dry fire a centerfire rifle. Just snap it on an empty chamber; no harm no foul. I just bought a 129 year old '73 in 38-40 and I've cycled and dry fired it almost as much as I've fired it with loaded ammunition(a lot). The extractor claw on my '73 has a very stout spring, yet it chambers ammunition just fine.
The thickness of the rim affects the headspace, so if the rim of the snap cap is too thick, headspace is jacked. Likewise, if the diameter of the rim of the snap caps is too large, the extractor won't want to snap over it. If I'm not mistaken snap caps are made of aluminum so the extractor claw, which is steel, is certain to tear the rim of the snap cap.
Lastly, make sure the extractor relief slot in the rear of the barrel isn't full of crud. If it is, the claw won't be able to travel far enough for the bolt to close.

35W

 

[Tommygunn]

Two comments:
1.) Clean the breech well -- maybe it's clogged with old BP residue(?)
2.) Snap caps are good --A Zoom are probably one of the best .... but I have found they are not absolute indicators of functionality.
I have a Uberti 1873 saddle-ring carbine. I know, it is not a REAL 1873. But what I found is the extractor will not ride over the rim of the A zoom. I thought that, maybe if the rear edge of the rim of the A-zoom was chamfered the problem would be solved, but that was only a hypothesis as I never bothered to carry through. I will state outright my Uberti (also .44-40 by the way) functions perfectly well with real ammo.
Maybe your '73 is experiencing like problems with the same brand snapcap I was using.
Having your rifle checked out by a 'smith familiar with the 1873 Winnie is a good idea.
If you can do it safely you might try dry-running some real ammo through the gun, but if you do do it in a manner that should a discharge happen, no one and nothing is hurt.

IMO the rim of the azoom is designed more with the idea of holding the cartridge in a revolver cylinder and not-so-much with the idea of having it run through a rifle which requires the use of the extractor -- just my two cent opinion.

 

[SixxshootinSam]

Hey fellas thanks a lot for all your feedback, truly appreciate it.
The main problem was indeed the extractor spring, i pried it up just a smidge and lubed it.
Also cleaned the small cavity the extractor goes into, it has some crud in it as well.
I've cycled some real ammo through it without firing it, and it works a lot better albeit not perfectly.

At times it won't cycle the next round through due to it not ejecting it properly, it just kind of sits there instead of being flipped over.

Wish there was a gunsmith around here that works on older rifles, but most of them here in Butte County California seem to work on modern ones only.

This rifle was made in 1880 according to the serial number.

 

[1KPerDay]

Be REALLY careful cycling live ammo. Firing pins can get stuck on old rifles. I have 2 with frozen firing pins.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Even if in a safe location and direction I wouldn't be cycling live ammo through it unless I know the gun is safe to shoot and only with ammo I know is safe for it. Wouldn't risk injury or damaging a classic old firearm if a modern smokeless round went off accidentally.

Personally I would not shoot anything but real black powder in it after it has been checked out and keep in mind most of those were a .427 bore when loading ammo for it. A lot of people use 429 and 430 bullets for current reloading 44-40 because modern guns are 429.

 

[30Cal]

It's an old cartridge that predates SAAMI specs which are used today. The SAAMI spec, which your snapcap was probably built to, was developed later, based on whatever dimensions they decided were representative. So that may be the root of your issue. Or it could be an issue with the rifle.

Try it with real ammo and see what you get.


ETA: the action looks pretty grimy, and could use a full breakdown and cleaning.

 

[lysanderxiii]

1880?

I would err on the side of caution and go black powder only.

 

[35 Whelen]

It's an old cartridge that predates SAAMI specs which are used today. The SAAMI spec, which your snapcap was probably built to, was developed later, based on whatever dimensions they decided were representative. So that may be the root of your issue. Or it could be an issue with the rifle.

Try it with real ammo and see what you get.


ETA: the action looks pretty grimy, and could use a full breakdown and cleaning.

Heck...the 45 Colt, 30-30 Winchester, 7x57 Mauser, 30-06 and any cartridge pre-1926 predates SAAMI. I think he found his problem.

35W

 

[SixxshootinSam]

Cowhide Cliff:
I got some Ultramax cowboy loads (smokeless), says on the midwayusa that " All Ultramax ammunition is loaded to SAAMI specs. Ultramax packages their Cowboy Action ammunition in historically authentic packaging and shoots well in vintage firearms.

So what you're saying is that it wouldn't be safe to shoot this ammo through an oldie like this due to the bore being slightly smaller?

edit: Since I just read that winchester first offered smokeless powder rounds for rifles in 1895, I think I answered my own question there. Not a good idea.

 

[BCRider]

Pulling the gun down totally and removing the pin for the extractor spring would be a wise idea. It'll let you get in there and sand or stone away any corrosion instead of just adding oil and making a brown stew that is still fairly grippy. And if it was sticking hard enough from the rust to actually snap off the rims like that this would be a wise step.

There's lots of You Tube videos on breaking down and reassembling an 1873 thanks to all the cowboy action shooters that use the Uberti clones.

The 1873 action even in the older guns is fairly tough. So proper cowboy action loads would be fine. And by "proper" I mean lower power that produce up to around 850fps from a 200gn bullet of the right size to fit the old bore..

For any full power hunting loads with this rifle I'd go with black powder or Pyrodex "P" loose powder in the cases so you get the full power muzzle velocity but with the softer "THUMP!" of the black powder or Pyrodex as opposed to the "CRACK!" we get with smokeless. Remember that with BP or Pyrodex P the rule is NO AIR GAP! And in fact you want to use enough powder to ensure about a 1/16 to 3/32 compression of the black powder or Pyrodex P. With the thicker heads on modern cases compared to the 1800's you still won't get a full 40gns of powder in there anyway.

A lot of folks use .429 bullets in their .44-40 ammo under the impression that this is the standard size for a ".44". But the proper size is .427. To check which your gun will be happy using you'll want to slug the bore and measure for yourself. Lee makes a .427 push through sizer which would be a good die to pick up. It'll let you buy .429 bullets intended for .44Spl and .44Mag and size them down to .427.

.... You ARE going to reload your own for this rifle, right? It'll actually make the gun afforable to shoot compared to buying factory ammo. Otherwise it'll eat you out of house and home faster than a growing teenager.