winchester 1894 fix, part or just hang it on the wall?

[Jim Mac]

quick question for the experts here. Just picked up a 30 wcf 1894 winchester.
Its got a few issues.
1. the top rear tang is broke
2. the plug and parts Magazine tube? is missing
3. missing the disconnector? Not sure whats missing but I have the bolt with the firing pin, and the hammer drops but theres something missing in between the hammer and firing pin.
bore is frosty. the serial number is in the 77,000 range with octoganal barrel. I think it was made int 1896 according to what I could find. If the rest of its there and works. is it worth slowly finding parts and have the tang welded?
Or do I part it out or trade it for stuff I could use? or just hang it on the wall?
I only paid $60 bucks for it and a 30 round AK mag was included.
thanks for any advice. jim

 

[rcmodel]

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=S_xRUr_JKJS29gTts4DwCw&ved=0CDQQ9QEwBA

It sounds to me like parting it out is your best bet.

That much missing = BIG Bucks to replace all of them with vintage parts that have a fair chance of being half-way right!

Welding the tang = Welding on the receiver awful close to the locking block recesses in the receiver.

Then after buying the parts, and welding it back together??
It will not be worth what you put in it to get it working.

Then you will still have to try to get it to work right, which it will probably only do under very strong protest.

If you need a project that will lots take money & time?
This could be it!!

Other wise?
Part it out & sell the parts on ebay, and cut your losses by making money on it, instead of spending money on it..

rc

 

[Jim Mac]

thanks for the link to the schematics. I think its going to be a wall hanger or trading material. jim

 

[goon]

I've read that bent and broken tangs are the result of horses having an affinity for lying down and rolling over. No help whatsoever for your situation, but maybe an explanation of how it happened at least.

 

[Jim Mac]

its definetly a cool rifle. I posted this question over on a perfectunion under the lever action forum. Maybe some one there may have some insight on parts etc. jim

 

[Jim Mac]

just went and looked at it again. the serial number is 772044 so it looks like a 1915. I thought with the octoganal barrel it was older. jim

 

[Malamute]

I don't think it would be that difficult to repair. The tang can be repaired by a truly good welder without getting the receiver too hot. It needs to be blocked and clamped to hold it in place, but its certainly not insurmountable. Someone that's really good could weld it and you could hold the parts in position by hand while getting it started. The parts can be packed in material that acts as a heat sink also.

Sounds like the locking bolt is gone. They aren't unobtanium by any means, I've bought several at gun shows for $10-$15 each. Winchester used to make them in varying thicknesses also if it was required to adjust headspace, though they seem to be fairly consistant.

Magazine tubes and parts aren't that expensive.

If you can take a few pics and post them, like with the action closed and open from a couple angles, it would help diagnose some of the missing parts.

 

[Jim Mac]

Ill try to post some pics monday. The tang is broke behind the hammer so its not too close to the reciever.

 

[Malamute]

Like through the small hole that's behind the hammer? That's where Sharps rifles tended to break. I've seen several original sharps broken and repaired there, and I think a couple or so Winchesters. The tang sight mounting hole is a weak point in the tang.

When you take pics, try to get one of the area between the bolt and hammer with the action closed. Clear is more important than extra close. If you can get clear pics that aren't super close, they can be cropped to bring them in closer (some cameras dont take clear pics up too close). Some people take gun pics and include 4 acres of floor or whatever background they use, which is going too far the other way. Two pics with overlapping parts of each half of the gun are better than the whole gun but so far away you can't see it well.

One from the side with the action open would be good also.

 

[Jim Mac]

Here are a few pictures. I called the local gunsmith today. Seems they may have parts for 94 winchesters in the parts bin. Im going to stop buy later this week to see what they think. Im finding out old guns are like old cars. Just because they are old doesnt mean they are worth much. That being said, its real easy to get upside down in both. jim

 

[Malamute]

The locking bolt is definitely missing. It has a firing pin extension thru it to transmit the hammer blow to the firing pin in the bolt. Hopefully it hasn't been dry fired with the locking bolt missing and the bolt peened around the firing pin.

That's a nasty break in the tang. I think its harder to fix than a break thru the tang sight hole, but can be done. It needs to be blocked and clamped to get it exactly right, it isn't a job for an average handyman welder, but someone that has experience doing fine work on small parts, and probably TIG welded (If I'm not mixing up terms) and not gotten too hot in the process. The stock looks like its possibly cracked and spread around the break also. It may be repairable.

You mentioned something about the magazine tube? Do you have any overall views of it?

You took pretty good pictures by the way. Well done!

Yes, just because they are old doesn't mean they are worth a lot, condition is everything on most old guns, unless they are truly rare. If most of the rest of it isn't in too bad of condition, it's probably salvageable as a shooter, and wouldn't be hurt too badly for a quality refinish or restoration (I'm not talking about a common overbuffed reblue and stock refinish).

 

[Jim Mac]

few more pics. the latest ones were done inside. Thanks for the compliment on the pics. These were shot on my phone. Jim

 

[Malamute]

OK. Do you have any more parts? It needs a magazine ring (the part that holds the magazine to the barrel about 3 1/2" from the muzzle), magazine tube, magazine spring, magazine cap and screw, and follower. None of them are expensive, but add up a bit when you have to get many parts.

If you get a magazine ring, it rotates into place. Many are damaged from people trying to drift them out like a sight dovetail. Once the magazine tube is slid forward and out, the ring simply rotates in it's dovetail and comes out.

If you get it up and running, it would be a fun, classy shooter. Not worth a ton, but a cool old rifle. I've seen similar guns sell in the $400-$600 range when all together, the bore not too bad and in decent shooting shape. That's maybe half what it would be worth if in better condition and not having replacement parts.

How is the lettering on the barrel? Are there any pipe wrench marks on the barrel? Yes, I'm serious, some people try to take the barrels off with a pipe wrench.

If you were close, I'd trade you out of it if you were interested, I have most of the parts (have for projects, not wanting to sell them) including a better stock and fore end.

 

[Jim Mac]

Thanks for the info. I juat was a brush and some patches through the barrel. Its still got the rifling in it. But the patches came out filthy. Im mean really dirty. I'll see what the local gunsmith has available and what its going to cost. He's pretty sure he's got the locking ? Block. But maybe not the tube.
If I were to look on ebay, do i just look for any pre64 parts? Or are the parts specific to certain serial number ranges? Thanks again. Jim

 

[Malamute]

I think most of the parts you need aren't specific to pre or post 64. Magazine tubes are still made for 26" barrel guns, (that's probably the only length I dont have around) I think the last ones I saw at a gun show were about $30-$40 for the tube, $8 for the spring. I don't know what caps and followers are going for, I haven't bought any in a while. You do want the early type cap and screw though I believe. It isn't necessarily pre-64, that change came about much later, but if they're going to call them pre-64 caps and screws, go with it. The late ones may fit all tubes, but the cap and screw may need to match the tube also, as they may have made the screw head a different size. I don't exactly recall that part. At the very least, the screw and cap have to match. Later cap screws are a bit fatter. If all you can get are late type parts for the tube, cap and screw, they will work on your gun, so long as they work together.

The magazine ring does have to be "pre-64" type, the later ones are completely different than the early type.

I've paid between $10-$15-$20 or so for locking bolts. I don't know what the supposed retail price is, its probably higher. I find them at gun shows. Even at the Antique Winchester Collector shows I find good deals on parts, many factory new.

Try running a solvent wet patch down the bore (Hoppes No 9 etc), letting it set a while, brushing then patching, repeat a few times, and see how it looks. Sometimes they get copper or lead fouled and take some serious elbow grease to clean. The foaming cleaners can do good work also, or the electronic cleaners. Be careful not to rub the cleaning rod on the barrel at the muzzle. The cone shaped guides are good for that.

I have a 20's carbine that had a pitted bore. It never cleaned up real pretty, but with a recrown on the muzzle, it shot decently. I'm thinking about 3"-3 1/2" or so at 100 yards. Plenty good for a head shot on a deer at 75 yards for a finishing shot.

I haven't bought parts on ebay, but from what I've heard its a good way to spend way too much money. There are several businesses that have parts, some are reasonably priced, some are high. You have to decide what its worth to get them I guess. There have been threads here and on the levergunsforum that had parts suppliers listed. Winchesters site used to have some names and web addresses of parts suppliers for obsolete models also.

Forgot to mention, it looks like you need a tang screw. It appears to have a bolt and nut in it, not the correct screw.

 

[Jim Mac]

I found a locking bolt and riser for 40 bucks. I think that will get the action fixed. Ive got a mig welder and have done some a reweld on a milled AK47 so I think I can make this thing work. I'll just keep a wet cloth on the front half of the reciever to keep it cool The tang is just to hold the stock anyway correct? jim

 

[Jim Mac]

turned out the parts were post 64 parts.

 

[Malamute]

There may be a difference in locking bolts from pre to post 64, but if so, I'm not aware of the difference.

I'm not sure what you're calling a riser.

The tang itself isn't so much an issue, but the rear of the receiver is where the locking bolt locks the bolt shut. I'd avoid much more heat on the rear of the receiver than you could hold your hand on comfortably. If in doubt as to how hot its getting, even with wet rags, or heat sink material, work a little, let it completely cool, do a little more, let it cool, and so on until its done.

 

[Jim Mac]

Sorry I think its called the lifter. Heres the ebay link to what I thought I needed. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Winchester-...935?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item565b84cb67
Im not sure if the lifter is still in the gun. Unfortunately Ive only had a 1972 win 94 before and I really didnt look at it all that much. It worked so I didnt really pay attention to it. jim

 

[Jim K]

I know that there is always hope of "restoring" a gun like that, and some folks will always try or encourage the owner to try, but IMHO it is simply unrealistic. That gun appears to be in poor condition, and of low value even if the tang were not broken. As it is, the cost of repairs and finding parts would soon mount up. Parting it out sounds easy, but that involves endless haggling with buyers, shipping parts, dealing with complaints about the quality of the part, etc. And why would anyone buy an old rusty part when new ones are readily available?

Another alternative is selling the gun to a parts place, probably for about 1/5 of what you have in it, and of course you have to pay shipping.

And that is no rare collectors item which, if restored would bring thousands. It is a common gun, in poor shape. Common guns have collector interest only if in top condition; otherwise they are, at best, shooters.

The wall hanger approach is probably the best. And you might be lucky and have your dimwit cousin buy it for a thousand dollars.

Jim

 

[Jim Mac]

I know what you mean about value vs amount invested. I found the locking block in ebay for 26 bucks shipped. If I can figure out what length magazine tube to buy, it looks like everything used should run about 60-75 bucks. The worst part of course is welding the tang. I pulled the stock and the break in the tang is behind the hammer. It doesnt look like theres anything critical there. It looks like it just holds the stock. If thats the case If I can do the welding or have a buddy to weld it for a 12 pack of beer. I'll be into this rifle for under 200 bucks if Im lucky.
Heck the local flea market guys sells broken top break revolvers for $100 to guys making wall hangers out of. I may get lucky and get most of my money back if I decide to sell.
So with that being said. Can someone please tell me how long of a magazine tube I need for this rifle? I measured the barrel and its 25 1/4 to the front of the reciever to the end of the barrel. Im just not sure how far the tube goes into the fore end. thanks. jim

 

[Malamute]

Your gun should have the standard length barrel of 26". It's measured from the rear end of the barrel, not the front end of the receiver. Open the action, and you can see the rear of the barrel. If its a standard length, which it sounds like it is, the tube shouldn't be hard to find. I don't recall the exact length of the tube, it will be about 25 1/4" or so. Asking for a tube for a 26" barrel should work, depending on who you get it from. The actual spec of the tube shouldn't be hard to find online.

Please have the buddy avoid getting it too hot when welding it. The tendency is to "just get it done" all in one shot, rather than doing it right and not getting it too hot, even if it means letting it cool before proceding. You may not care so much, but somebody down the line may if they want to shoot it or restore it. Getting it too hot can affect heat treatment in the locking block area, potentially making it at least short lived, if not unsafe.

The name Winchester uses for the "lifter" is carrier. If you open the action, it will be laying flat down in the bottom of the action, as the bolt reaches its rearmost travel, the front of the carrier will snap up into position to ramp the cartridge into the chamber. You can google image search the word and find pics of it. I just did, but there were few of it in the action.

 

[Jim Mac]

Thanks for all the information on the rifle. I think I see what you mean on the lifter and its already there. Im going to look for a tube and related parts next. Then Ill go talk to the gunsmith to see who they recommend to have it professionally welded. If im going to be into it for a few bucks. May as well do it right and safe. Jim

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thanks for all the information on the rifle. I think I see what you mean on the lifter and its already there. Im going to look for a tube and related parts next. Then Ill go talk to the gunsmith to see who they recommend to have it professionally welded. If im going to be into it for a few bucks. May as well do it right and safe. Jim

So it looks like you are going to have to learn the hard way and spend too much money on that rifle. I do understand, many have done the same thing. When the time comes you decide enough is enough give Numrich Gun Parts a call and see what they will offer you. They usually offer a fair price for parts like you have. http://www.gunpartscorp.com/

You might want to check there for parts you need if you're really intent on trying to restore the gun. Good luck with the way you decide to go...

 

[Jim Mac]

I understand about being upside down in a restoration. My plan isnt so much a restoration, more like replace the missing parts and fix the tang. If I can do this for less than $200 Im sure Ill do fine. They sell broken no name top break pistols at the local flea market for $75-100 for wall decorations. And around here theres always people buying old guns just because they are old.