Winchester 1894 Help!

[cleardiddion]

So, I found out after going through a diagnosis of my Winchester 1894 (it was a **** to take apart, like a nightmare made of puzzles) that my firing pin end had broken off. No problem, or so I thought, I'll just get a new firing pin off the magic internet. However, all the pins that I've found so far state that they are for pre-64 1894's.

The problem is that my rifle is of 1971 vintage and a website that I was looking through said that 95% of parts will not interchange in between a pre-64 and post.

I was wondering if anyone knew if a pre-64 designated firing pin would work in a post. And, if not, if there was a source for these things.

Thanks for the help in advance!

 

[rcmodel]

Brownell's should have what you need:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/mid=113/schematics/Winchester_

Or the Winchester Parts & Repair Center in Arnold MO.
http://www.winchesterguns.com/customerservice/partsservice/service-repair.asp

rc

 

[Malamute]

Just curious, have you been dry firing it?

 

[Kernel]

Brownells has almost no Winchester parts. The only part for the Model 94, that I know they have, is the front sight hood. I doubt they'll have firing pins.

Last time I checked (about three weeks ago) even Winchester had no Model 94 parts. They don't make that model anymore, and no longer support it.

Numrich Gun Parts Corporation would be your best bet:

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/

 

[Abel]

my Winchester 1894 (it was a **** to take apart, like a nightmare made of puzzles)

You should try to take apart a Marlin 336. It was clearly designed to be taken apart easily.

 

[Tirod]

Civilian firearms are not designed to be easily dismantled for repair, or even a thorough cleaning. That's a military thing, where soldiers in horrible environments are forced to do so repeatedly.

While the collector market cherishes the older pre-64's, it's just as well you have a later one. Those earlier guns had a lot of hand fitted parts that made interchangeability and parts replacemend a gunsmithing job. Later guns were built less expensively by holding tighter tolerances on making the part and eliminating expensive fabrication methods and hand fitting. Cheaper parts the owner can install without a major understanding of critical surface angles is to our advantage.

Millions of prior service soldiers understand the concept, because they were trained on the M16. Older designs like the lever action 94 really are difficult to tear down.

Most gun designers have adopted simplicity because it's less labor and cost in the long run.

 

[Malamute]

Many years ago when I broke mine, the gunsmith repaired the firing pin by drilling into the tip and solver soldering in a piece of steel, then shaping it. It worked fine for years until I sold it. BTW, the first thing he said when I brought it in was "Been dry firing it, haven't you".

I see parts at gun shows pretty regularly, but I may be spoiled, I go to the Winchester Collectors shows in June. There must be parts available. If you don't find one, or your 'smith won't repair yours afforably, PM me. I may have some contacts with parts.


I've not found the 94's to be that difficult to take apart once you know the process, or to replace parts in, nor have I found much reason to take one apart unless a part needs replacing. Dry firing with them without snap caps is to be avoided tho.

 

[cleardiddion]

Just curious, have you been dry firing it?

Admitedly guilty. I used a few pieces of empty brass but I think they weren't enough. I'll probably go ahead and pony up a few bucks for the snap caps.

Luckily I was able to find an old gentleman out in WA who sells them and it should be getting here early next week.

Do you guys think that I should keep the old firing pin and try to fix it so that I have a spare or just toss it?

 

[Malamute]

When you have the new one, you could have someone copy the length/shape to repair the old one and have a spare, tho when not dry fired, they last about forever. Even if you dont repair it right away, it may come in handy some day, for you or someone else.

One thing I've done in the past, and plan on doing more of, is drilling a hole under the buttplate and keeping a spare firing pin, and perhaps an extractor there. lighty greased and wrapped in plastic, it shouldnt come to any grief.


I did the same with mine, used a piece of empty brass. After only a few hits tho, with the heavy strike the Winchesters give, the primer is dented in enough that it doesnt do much. The snap cap is probably the best idea. I understand they do wear out in time also.

 

[quietman]

Civilian firearms are not designed to be easily dismantled for repair, or even a thorough cleaning. That's a military thing, where soldiers in horrible environments are forced to do so repeatedly.

Not always true. As Abel says, try taking apart a Marlin (336, 1894, or 1895. It doesn't matter which one) A true "cowboy's" field rifle when it comes to maintenance.

 

[longdayjake]

I just did a 1980's model 94 restoration a while back. It is by far easier and cheaper to just go to the winchester parts store and order over the phone. I had to order about 4 screws and a barrel band for the gun and Winchester parts was the only place I could find them. Anyway, here are the pictures of the restoration. (the rifle was in a basement flood).

I personally didn't find it that difficult to work on, but then again I am kind of a gun-savant.

 

[cleardiddion]

Hey longdayjake, how much did the action screws run you from the parts store?
The ones I have on mine have a lot of wear and whatnot on them from someone at some time trying to take it apart, perhaps to do some home gunsmithing.
The only ones I've been able to find have been on the north end of 38 dollars.

 

[Tirod]

Not always true. As Abel says, try taking apart a Marlin (336, 1894, or 1895. It doesn't matter which one) A true "cowboy's" field rifle when it comes to maintenance.

"Most gun designers have adopted simplicity because it's less labor and cost in the long run."

I already answered that because of the previous mention of it. Now we are repeating ourselves repeating ourselves.

The simple fact is that military arms are designed to take down and disassemble for cleaning without the need for any tool. No screwdrivers, nothing. There are no tiny screws, no complicated or difficult assemblies, no adjustments after. The AR is about the epitome of that, the Win 94 a good example of the opposite.

If a civilian rifle is made that takes mercy on the owner and offers easy cleaning, so much the better. The typical attitude by military designers is that the soldier will tear it down multiple times in the day, and it better be user friendly. The civilian designer has the luxury of making a gun to his aesthetic, often traditional, and usually with the knowledge it might be cleaned once or twice a year. That is almost never in the field, and certainly will require tools and a flat surface to work on.

It's why gun catalogs have so many vices and benches to service firearms, and the soldier is told to use his lap while sitting on the ground - and don't lose the pieces. If that can be done with the Marlin, while sitting in leaf drift, in a drizzle, without using tools, fine.

 

[longdayjake]

Hey longdayjake, how much did the action screws run you from the parts store?

I think everything all together plus the shipping was $20.

What I had to buy:

The trigger screw (you can see it missing in the picture).

The two screws that go where you put scope mounts. (original owner threw them away when he mounted a scope).

The barrel band and barrel band screw. Or maybe it was just the screw. I don't really remember.

 

[CraigC]

You should try to take apart a Marlin 336. It was clearly designed to be taken apart easily.

How long ya gonna ride that goat???

The Marlin is easy to take apart, big deal. How often do you need to take your levergun apart? How often do you need to do so in the field? Practically never. I've taken 94's apart many times and it is no big deal. This is a non-issue and no reason to choose one over the other.

 

[rcmodel]

The 94 was designed so you didn't need to take it apart.

Notice when the action is opened you could drive a goat herd through there.
Dirt falls in.
Dirt falls out every time you cycle the action.

There are a heck of a lot of very old Winchesters that have never been taken apart since they were made in 1900 something. And have spent the first half of their life in a dusty saddle scabbard or buggy seat.

But they were never intended to be dry-fired, and the old cowboys & ranch-hands didn't waste their time on such foolishness anyway.

rc

 

[outerlimit]

I agree with crmodel. I would say don't try to compare the gun to a military gun. And don't try to turn it into an SKS by drilling holes and sticking spare parts into it. The beauty of the gun is that it's not an SKS. It has the advantages of it not being a .30cal military rifle, making it a more refined piece.

 

[cleardiddion]

Ugh!
So I got the firing pin the yesterday, only problem is that the guy sent me a pre-64 firing pin!
I specified that I needed a post-64 in three different places with him: on the phone (multiple times), wrote it down on the check, and wrote a note specifiying the part.

I was so happy when I got the envelope too! And totally shocked when I opened it!

What do I do?

 

[Malamute]

Try it and see if it fits.

One of the differences was pre-64's had a cross pin holding in the firing pin towards the rear, the posts didnt. Otherwise, the pre may fit OK in the post, but a post-64 wouldnt fit in a pre-64 unless you left out the crosss pin. The later ones were also lightened, making them look rather skeletal compared to an older firing pin, but I don't know for sure if theres any dimensional difference that matters as far as function.

 

[Malamute]

Just dug out my spares. There's a small difference in the shape of the cutout on the bottom, but I don't know if it will make any difference in function. Don't have my calipers handy to check diameters, but I would guess they're OK.



Back off topic, I also believe there's simply no good reason to take a Winchester apart for maintenence to keep it functioning. I have a 1927 carbine that was a ranch gun in Az. When I got it in the 80's, it looked like it had never ever been cleaned in any way. The action felt like it was full of muddy crud, but it still functioned fine. It had seen so much use, the magazine spring was worn through in two places, and had been spliced together with sewing thread. It still worked. I stripped it down and gave it a good cleaning when I got it, but havent taken it apart since, and it gets drug around in the hills and as a truck gun quite a lot. If one chooses to take care of their Winchester, all that's really needed is a careful bore cleaning, some solvent in the action with a rag and toothbrush to clean, and a little oil. No need to take them apart, and zero chance of losing small parts.

In a late 50's NRA reloading manual, in the 30-30 section, they commented on the Winchester 94 (no mention of Marlins), opining that they were " virtually indestructible in service". That's been about my experience over 30-some years of use, and one of the most mechanically reliable actions I've used, including Mausers and 1903 Springfields. Several of the half dozen Marlins I've used have had several different mechanical reliabilty issues. In the common threads of "If you could only have one,..." I first think of the 94, largely because of the reliabilty, and because of the compact, thin profile that makes it very easy to carry in hand, and always have if needed. YMMV

 

[cleardiddion]

I tried to get it to fit, however the part is far too thick to fit in the firing pin channel, as in it can't even make it halfway in there.
And just as a note, the post-64 that I have still has a pin which goes through the bolt carrier.

And, no, I don't take mine apart just for the laughs however this one was kinda neccessary.

 

[HB]

delete

 

[Malamute]

Hmm, if you were knee deep in hostile Indians or bandits, I'd say polish it down in a drill until it fits, but I may know a source for a part. I'll send you a PM with the guys name and address. He has stuff now and then. The pre-64 pin may be good trade stock, to him, or someone else. Do you have a caliper you can compare the diameters of the old and new firing pins?

 

[outerlimit]

With as popular as the gun was and still is, regardless of it not being made anymore, I had no idea parts were hard to come by. This is really surprising.