Quantcast

Winchester 1897 trap black diamond

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by autism_emu, Nov 19, 2020 at 5:59 PM.

  1. autism_emu

    autism_emu Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2019
    Messages:
    10
    I have a Winchester 1897 trap made in 1903 and would like to know if I could shoot geese and ducks with it. If so what are some safe 12 gauge loads with which I can shoot geese and various waterfowl?
    -Thanks
     
  2. Oldschool shooter

    Oldschool shooter Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    587
    Location:
    Michigan
    I'm no expert, but I believe the barrel would not hold up to steel shot.
     
    Coyote3855 likes this.
  3. kudu
    • Contributing Member

    kudu Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2003
    Messages:
    4,443
    Location:
    north central indiana
    Bismuth loads for hunting migratory waterfowl. A bit expensive, but not as bad a tungsten shot. Do not use steel, it might hold up to few shots, but it could damage the barrel and possibly the shooter.
     
    Boattale likes this.
  4. autism_emu

    autism_emu Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2019
    Messages:
    10
    How hot should the loads be that I can load the powders I have are Pyrodex and blue dot along with cushion wads, nitro cards, and a roll crimper.
    -Autism emu
     
  5. Scribner

    Scribner Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2019
    Messages:
    45
  6. kudu
    • Contributing Member

    kudu Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2003
    Messages:
    4,443
    Location:
    north central indiana
    The shotgun should handle all standard 2 3/4" shells standard and heavy loads. That recipe should be fine for your gun as long as you use the components listed, no cushion wads, nitro cards, and a roll crimp. You need to use that Claybuster wad or a direct compatible wad for the recipe. Shotgun loading is not quite like rifle and pistol metallic loading where you can do major substitutions, you need to stay withing guidelines for shotshells.

    I would just buy a box, quite expensive, rather than trying to set up loads, unless you plan on shooting a lot of them. I could convert my MEC over from target loads easily enough and load a few hundred in an hour or two and be done for a while.

    https://bossshotshells.com/shotshells/bismuth/
    https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/kent-bismuth-upland-non-toxic-shotshells
    https://www.hevishot.com/catalog/hevi-bismuth-waterfowl/
    https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Shotshell/Xtended-Range-Bismuth
     
    Scribner likes this.
  7. autism_emu

    autism_emu Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2019
    Messages:
    10
    So should a load like this work, I have lots of bismuth shot because I like hunting ducks with old SxS shotguns so would a load like this work well?
    40 grains of a blue dot
    1 1/4 BB shot
    and multiple cushion wads followed by a bpi roll crimp.
    Although it doesn't directly follow the recipe I think it should work.
    Another question I have is will this load work for waterfowl like geese and ducks?
    -Autism emu
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 1:19 AM
  8. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    11,066
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    It is a Trap gun, and a somewhat rare one at that. Sell it to a Trap shooter, you can buy about 10 or more field Model Win. 97's that you can do anything except shoot steel through Full choke models. ( unless you heve the chokes opened up.)

    And you would be correct. Plus if it's a Full or Improved Modified (which almost all Diamond Traps were) it will blow the pattern out and cause loose and irregular patterns.

    Find an old Ithaca NID or L. C. Smith for way less than that 97 Diamond Trap is worth, and have a good shotgun gunsmith open up the chokes to IM /Mod for shooting bismuth. I found a load for STS hulls, 39.5 gr. Blue Dot, but it's 1421 fps, and over 10,000 pressure. Were I loading for an 870, I wouldn't think twice about it, but that's more than I'd want to shoot out of a '97 made in '03.
     
    Armored farmer likes this.
  9. Coyote3855

    Coyote3855 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    2,461
    Location:
    Wyoming
    The 97 Black Diamond is a grail gun for me so I agree with those who suggest selling it and buying something more usable with alternative shot metals. Just me, but I think it would be a shame to beat up this fine gun in a duck blind.
     
  10. autism_emu

    autism_emu Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2019
    Messages:
    10
    If pressure problems are a large issue then can I use Pyrodex, for example, 3 drams worth of it in order to stay within pressure guidelines? The gun is already beat up on the outside but the internals are fine so I really don't think it would make much a difference if I shot it in a duck blind. I really don't want to sell it because my grandfather passed recently and gave me his firearms, I would hate to sell it and would like to shoot geese and ducks with it as my grandfather did so many years ago.
    -autism_emu
     
  11. Scribner

    Scribner Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2019
    Messages:
    45
    Hang on a sec. I posted a published recipe with a source. The next person said follow the recipe. Don’t cheat using the components you have because. You then wrote about wanting to use the components you have. Then another poster brought up how he felt 10,000 lbs of pressure might be too much. This refers back to a published recipe. SAAMI pressures haven’t changed since your 97 was made so it might be okay . Some people use low pressure loads, but You are asking about using components you have on a gun we can’t see. If you do some research, you might find a load using the components you have or a low pressure load for bismuth. I only use published recipes because powder manufacturers have spent their research dollars to produce safe recipes. If I have questions about my guns, I do not rely on internet strangers. I take it to a professional. Please be safe.
     
    kudu likes this.
  12. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    11,066
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    Well then don't sell it, keep it and shoot Trap with it, with Trap loads. Your grandpa may not have had a choice, maybe he only owned the one shotgun, but his choice to take an (what would have been at the time) expensive Trap gun out in the blind was not a wise one. Why would you want to repeat his poor choice, made poorer but today's waterfowl ammunition requirements?

    I understand why you want to do this. I took my Grandpa's H&R 16 ga. single shot out pheasant hunting, as it was his pheasant gun. But it was a beat-up old second hand gun back when he bought it in the late twenties, and more so when I got a pheasant with it 3 years ago. Had it been an H&H 16 ga., I would not have taken it out. Your gun is not an H&H either, but it's not a beat-up old economy model. Black Diamonds were Winchesters elite Trap and Skeet guns back then, the Model 21 wouldn't come out for another 28 years. Please reconsider your plans- I recommend restoring it and shooting Trap with it, it would be a shame to waste it on anything else.
     
  13. autism_emu

    autism_emu Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2019
    Messages:
    10
    I just want to hunt with the gun its already beat up and I hate shooting trap. I'm simply asking for load data is all for hunting animals like ducks and geese not to be lectured that it's a bad idea even when the gun is beaten up. It would be a shame to restore it because I personally like the honest wear it has over the year. My grandfather was given this firearm for cheap so he really didn't consider the value because he bought it at an old pawn in the 40s that didn't know the price. I just want to find a safe load that can hunt these birds well and effectively like they did many years ago.
    -autism_emu
     
  14. Sovblocgunfan

    Sovblocgunfan Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,243
    Okay, so you already have your mind made up to do what you want. That’s cool.

    as far as loads go, I’m not a reloader, but it seems to me you’ve asked for advice and input about safe loads and then changed the parameters of your question to get verification on whether loads you are coming up with (using your components and not what’s been suggested by others) are safe.

    It’s your gun and you can (and should) do what you want with it. But it seems getting members to sign off on your load recipes using your components might be a bit of a stretch.

    most here are suggesting additional research based on the components you have. I can’t imagine why that would not be a good idea.
     
    Scribner likes this.
  15. autism_emu

    autism_emu Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2019
    Messages:
    10
    Oh sorry I misread alright I'll further look into it
     
  16. cokehayes45

    cokehayes45 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2020
    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    Arizona
    Looking to buy a 1897 Winchester. How much are they usually? Not looking to buy one as old as 1903 though. Perhaps a newer one.
     
  17. Virginian

    Virginian Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Messages:
    4,314
    Location:
    Williamsburg, Virginia
    That gun was made to hunt ducks with. Hell, The Shootinest Gentleman used one. I have duck hunted all over, and used everything including a BSS, A Winchester 23, and a Winchester 21 (on trial), and none of them ever got in the least beat up. Somewhere along the line it became acceptable, or even "tuff guy" symbolic to drop guns in the bottom of the boat and what not.
     
  18. Scribner

    Scribner Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2019
    Messages:
    45

    They can found for anywhere between $250 and $8000.Marauder has a webpage dedicated to how to pick out a ‘97. There are things to watch so you buy a safe one. There is also an outfit that will take your ‘97 & refurbish it to be a trench gun
     
    cokehayes45 likes this.
  19. tmd16556

    tmd16556 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2019
    Messages:
    104
    If you want to hunt ducks and geese a lot then get a modern steel-safe 3 1/2 gun.

    If you want to go out a few times every season with it for the experience and connection to your grandfather then buy some bismuth loads and have fun. They are expensive but if you’re only shooting a box a year with the gun it isn’t much. That’s what the bismuth loads are meant for.

    Just don’t shoot steel in it and you’re fine.

    If it were mine I’d take it out to the dove field with a 1 1/4 oz of # 7 1/2.
     
    entropy likes this.
  20. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    11,066
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    Or pheasants with 1 1/4 of 5's.
     
  21. cokehayes45

    cokehayes45 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2020
    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    Arizona
    can you send me a link to both of those websites?
     
  22. Scribner

    Scribner Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2019
    Messages:
    45
    Not really. Sorry. Marauder’s pages are here

    https://marauder.homestead.com/cowboy.html

    Some of his advice runs like this:

    First: Make sure that the "FLAG" on the shell lifter is working correctly. It should rise before the shell does. If not, seek proper repairs.
    Second: Be sure that the slide release is working correctly! The slide should NOT open if the firing sequence is not completed unless the slide release is activated. (many amateur gunsmiths defeat the slide release! BAD JUJU!!) The slide/bolt should remain locked in battery until the hammer drops, the safety mechanism perceives recoil, or the slide release is activated.
    Third: Be sure that the hammer does NOT follow the bolt when the trigger is held. Just like the Marlin, slowly close the bolt with the trigger depressed to a point just short of closed battery. The hammer should remain cocked and the firing pin should be blocked anywhere short of "In Battery".
    Fourth: Be sure that the firing pin retracts fully when the bolt is open.

    i add there should still be adjustment left in the barrel, the magazine should not be out of round, and half cock should work ( because this is all the safety the gun has)
     
    entropy likes this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice