Winchester 1897 Trench Gun Questions

[jcochran1111]

I recently purchased a Winchester 1897 Trench Gun. I researched what I could online, and found quite a bit of information, but I still have a few questions remaining.

To start off, I will describe the information I have found (the accuracy of which is dependent upon where I read it). The serial number is 684XXX placing the manufacture date in 1919 by some online sources, but other places I have read dispute this saying it would have been made during WWI. Any clarification and sources here would be appreciated.

The stock, barrel and slide markings, solid frame, US Ordinace stamp, missing barrel bead, and grooves in the barrel for the bayonet lug screws, all imply that the barrel, receiver, and stock are original. Any other indicators I could look for?

The two things I have had more trouble deducing are as follows. Firstly, the gun has been parkarized, but the quality, wear, and patina would suggest that it was done a long time ago - perhaps by the army in preparation for WWII or some other conflict? The magazine tube has not been parkaraized, which the individual selling it said was typical for military guns because they wanted the pump to remain working smoothly. Is there any truth to this, and if the army did repark it, are there any markings that should be present? Or exceptions?

The second thing is that I think the barrel shroud/bayonet lug may have been replaced. The parkarization on it looks fresher and the serial number is 7311XXX - much higher than the gun. However, the shroud has 6 rows of holes like the WWI orginals. Does anyone know when this shroud/lug was made? If not original, would the replacement have been done by the military?

I have attached a few photos, and can attach more as the need may arise. Any further information would certainly be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[jcochran1111]

Here are a few more pictures that will hopefully help.

 

[ReloaderFred]

Your gun was indeed manufactured in 1919. The last serial number assigned in 1918 was 668383. The last serial number assigned at the end of 1919 was 691943.

As for the authenticity of the heat shield, etc., that's out of my area of expertise, so I can't help you there.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[1KPerDay]

Whether original or not, that is completely cool.

 

[Tom D]

The shotgun was actually made during WW1. Probably in early 1918. I have one in the same serial number range, and according to the Winchester Polishing Room Records, it was serialized in early 1918. Just about all of the Winchester serial number tables out there are wrong, some by a few years.

The martial markings (US mark and the Ordnance flaming bomb) on the receiver look like they might be authentic, but I would have to see them in person to say for sure. There are more WW1 M1897 trench guns that do not have the martial markings that do have them.

IMO, if the gun was refinished by an arsenal, the entire gun would be parkerized including the magazine tube.

The bayonet adaptor is not the kind found on WW1 or WW2 Winchester trench guns. It looks more like the type found on Winchester Model 1200 trench guns although the number on it is not the same as found on Model 1200 bayo adaptors.

 

[jcochran1111]

Would you mind explaining the differences in the Bayonet lug? I cannot find any inconsistancies between mine and the pictures I can find online of originals, except that it simply looks newer.

 

[Tom D]

For one thing, compare the bottom contour of the different bayonet adaptors and you will see a difference.

 

[jcochran1111]

Might it possibly be a later replacement - like Korean War era or something? That was what the seller told me based on a book there. I would like to learn more about serial number ranges for the shield. Any place where this might be found? Or does anybody have these?

 

[bushmaster1313]

Canfield has a book, maybe more, on trench guns

 

[jcochran1111]

I purchased a book by Poyer on Amazon. Should be coming soon, but I could read a little of it on Amazon last night.

Here is the research I have done so far in addition to the great answers coming in here:

The stock and forgrip match, and the tang, comb, and buttplate of the stock appear to be originals. The barrel and receiver markings appear to be authentic - The Ordinance Mark measurments being quite close to Poyer's when measured with my cheap wooden ruler (not the best, but what I had on hand). They also match this one that I found online pretty closely:

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/31438

The barrel measures about 20.5 inches long from the bead of the bolt with the action closed (also roughly measured with my little ruler). The sling is old and matches the pictures I have seen as well. The mechanics of the gun seem to be very good and tight with a sturdy lock up. The trigger sear holds well and the hammer has no wear on the knurling from the bolt. I still have not shot it yet, but intend to do so soon.

The head shield/bayonet lug appear to indeed be from a Winchester 1200 as mentioned above and shown here:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?87899-Help-ID-Parkerized-heat-shield-for-Trench-shotgun

And, of course, receiver and barrel have been parkarized (due to the wear on it, it appears to be done some time ago). There are no stamps on the stock to indicate it was parkarized by an arsenal, as Poyer notes there should be.

So my conclusion at this point is that:
A) The gun was reparked by the army, the shroud replaced in the Vietnam era, and then sold (probably unlikely due to the literature and comments above).
B) The gun was sold by the army sometime earlier, and someone did a good job parkarizing it, and subsequently replaced the heat shield for some reason.

Does this all sound accurate/plausable?

 

[Tom D]

The Model 1200 bayonet adaptors are marked with a different number, and I can't recall ever seeing a bayonet adaptor with the number like on your's. Also, your heat shield looks like it is attached to the adaptor differently, and the rear sides of the heat shield, or ears, look different on your's than on the Model 1200 heat shield. So I don't think it's a Model 1200 adaptor. It might be a reproduction bayo adaptor/heat shield.

 

[jcochran1111]

Interesting... I am thinking of trying to find an original bayonet lug/heat sheild to put on it. Parkarized if possible so it will match... and if I could get one with a serial number in the same year that would be even better, but I'm guessing that is likely a pretty long shot. Any thoughts on where I might be able to find such an item?

Also any thoughts on the potential value of the gun in its current state? Its value with an original heat sheild?