Question about Winchester 1897

[tnhillbilly]

I have recently gotten some interest in the Winchester 1897 shotguns and been reading up quite a bit, but there is a question or two which has been eluding me. During the 1920's-30's I am sure a lot of law enforcement agencies would have used these (i.e. police departments, FBI, prison guards). Question is, would they have used the trench model, riot model or both? Were any of the trench models issued to National Guard units? Were any trench models surplussed out for public or municipal purchase after WWI?

 

[rcmodel]

Winchester sold Riot versions as late as the mid-1950's.

I have a 1955 Winchester catalog that lists the 97 Riot gun as ideal for banks, warehouses, police, express messengers, sheriffs, and guards.

In general, the Trench model with the handguard was a military version. The handguard allowed mounting a bayonet to the end of the shotgun. There may have been some use by prison guards who might have occasion to poke someone with a bayonet.

Any issued to National Guard troops would have probably been the U.S. GI issue Trench version with the bayonet lug handguard.

Civilians & LEO's using riot guns very seldom required bayonet fighting.

In 1955, a Model 97 Riot gun sold new for $77.30.
A Model 12 Riot gun sold for $93.85.

rc

 

[winchester '97]

He nailed it, the trench gun was military, the riot was civilian.

 

[Dave McCracken]

When I started working at the MD House Of Correction in 1977, the armory contained a number of both 97s and 12s. Neither model wore handguards nor were bayonet capable.

 

[JNewell]

One of Canfield's books documents the conversion of Remington trench shotguns to riot versions after WW1, so it seems that even the military had a limited view of the usefulness of the trench model.

 

[rcmodel]

I don't think it was so much a limited view of the usefulness.
They were well proven and well liked in the trenches of WWI.

But we all know that WWI was "The war to end all wars"!

Perhaps the military just thought there would never be a need for trench guns again.

That was certainly proven wrong in 1939 - 45 though.
Especially in the south pacific where Trench guns were once again proved very useful in jungle fighting and cave clearing.

rc

 

[ReloaderFred]

The shotgun is a job specific tool for both law enforcement and the military. I carried one in a patrol car for 26 years, and there were times when it was the best, and most effective, for the job at hand, but at other times it was the worst.

The same is true for the military. When I was in the Marine Corps in the late 1960's, all the prisoner chasers carried riot guns, the same as law enforcement, since that was the job they performed. In the jungles of Viet Nam, shotguns were a great tool for close encounters in thick jungle when you couldn't see the enemy, but he was close by. While I never went to Viet Nam, I served with many who did, and they told stories of shotguns that were passed from a veteran at the end of his tour to an incoming replacement, and great amounts of money were exchanged for both the shotgun and ammunition.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[JNewell]

I wasn't clear about what I meant. The reference to "usefulness" was with respect to the military's evaluation of the usefulness of the trench model to the riot model. "Necessity" or something like that might have been a better word. The intent was to convey that even the military apparently didn't find the trench configuration compelling for most of its uses - that is, uses other than front line combat - as demonstrated by conversion of trench guns to riot configuration. IIRC, however, Canfield also discusses the re-conversion of these shotguns to trench configuration as WW2 heated up and combat use was once again envisioned.

don't think it was so much a limited view of the usefulness.
They were well proven and well liked in the trenches of WWI.

But we all know that WWI was "The war to end all wars"!

Perhaps the military just thought there would never be a need for trench guns again.

That was certainly proven wrong in 1939 - 45 though.
Especially in the south pacific where Trench guns were once again proved very useful in jungle fighting and cave clearing.

 

[Tom D]

Some of the Military trench guns, including Winchester Model 1897 trench guns, were given to National Guard Units after WW1. Shortly thereafter they were sold off to law enforcement. The so-called "Ivanhoe" Model 1897 trench guns are an example. The Ivanhoe trench guns were sold off to the Richmond Police Dept. in the 1920s, and the Richmond PD sold them several years ago to a dealer named Ivanhoe. Hence the term "Ivanhoe" trench guns.

Also, between the Wars Winchester manufactured a commercial Model 1897 trench gun. Most of these are in the 800,000 serial number range, and many can be found with brass buttplates with the same Wincester logo on them as the hard black rubber buttplates.