Winchester 94 Carbine Sight Picture

[M100C]

All,
I picked up a beautiful little 1931 Winchester 94 carbine. It is a non-SR model (aka Eastern carbine), but it has the correct pinned front blade sight (61-B) and ladder rear sight (44-A).

The front sight height is a shade over 0.8" (top of blade to C/L of bore), and of course, the rear sight sits right on the barrel (w/o the ladder erected); in short, little adjustment possible.

Took it to the range, and it groups well at 50 yds, but 4" high. Ran trajectory and estimated 7" high at 100 yds; and it is. Good grouping at both 50 and 100 yds, but high. Zero would be out to 260 yds. Here is my question:

1) Since the front sight is in factory form, and would need to be taller to bring in the zero; no option; and,
2) Since the rear sight is in factory form, and would need to be lowered to bring in the zero; no option.

So, I am wondering whether I am using the wrong sight picture, or these guns were zeroed well past 100 yds. (250 yds?) from the factory? I am expecting my sight picture is wrong.

The sight picture I am using is what I use for my other guns: Level the top of the front blade with the top of the rear sight, centered in the notch, and expect POI at the top of the front blade (so, for a 1 in. orange stick-on spot, I am cutting it in half with top edge of front sight blade). It is a great sight picture (for me, anyway).

Any words of wisdom? I know how I could correct the rifle, but do not want to alter the sights in any way. Thanks!

 

[Charles S]

I am following this. I have a similar problem and am considering adding a peep sight. I have one another lever action that I really like.



http://shop.opticsplanet.com/williams-gun-sight-fp-series-receiver-sights-fp-94-36-1274w.html?_iv_code=WL-AP-1274W&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=plusbox-beta&gclid=CIqXm8SL2ckCFQ8zaQodXBsEQg

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Try a 6 o'clock hold at close distances.

 

[The Bushmaster]

I have a 1949 .30 WCF mod. 94. I sight in at 100 yards with the front sight in the bottom center of the rear notch. Front sight at 6 o-clock on the bull. My rear sight has a notched ramp and I'm at the middle notch. Yours should have a notched ramped rear sight also. If not...It's missing.

I do not believe the ladder rear sight is original.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

This is on my 9422 but I have the same sight on one of my 94's. Snuggled down to the near the very bottom of the adjustment I can use the peep and put the top of the front round bead on the center of the target and hit there routinely.



I shot this 50 shot group off the bench, 100 yrds, putting the bead in the base of the buckhorn (I hate the buckhorn sight!) and then putting the bottom of the white central target on the top of the bead in the base of the buckhorn. You can see I was hitting in general about an inch high. This would have been my standard load of 30 grns of 3031 with a 150 grn Sierra. This is the gun that now has the williams sight on it that my 9422 has. Dang I hate buckhorn sights. They cover up so much of the field of view.

 

[witchhunter]

Put the bead in the bottom of the back sight notch and use the bead as the POI. All of mine are sighted in that way, it was the way I was taught back in the day.

 

[Stony]

Don't understand how the front sight can cover up so much target, if you only use the top of it as the sighting point. I use these type sights on many rifles and have no issues with them properly sighted.

 

[Malamute]

Does your rear sight have the wide V notch or the small U notch? They came both ways.

There was in the past a term called "drawing a coarse bead" or "drawing a fine bead". It didn't make much sense as described to me until I saw the wide V sights. In a coarse sighting, the front sight was at the top as you described. In a fine bead, the3 front sight was drawn down into the bottom of the notch. In the common small U notch rear sights, there isn't much difference. In the early type carbine sights with the wide V notch, it changes quite a lot. In messing around with it, I drew the front blade down into the bottom of the notch until it was basically a square at the bottom of the V.

Having said all that, I made a new front sight blade and filed it to zero to suit me when used in the coarse type sighting at a distance I wanted.

I believe post No 4 is incorrect. The early type carbine sight was used some into the 30's. In early type sights, the dovetail was about 2 1/4" forward of the receiver to the center of the notch. The later guns with sporting rifle type sights, the notch was about 3 7/8" forward of the edge of the receiver to the center of the dovetail. Apparently some aren't familiar with the early type carbine sights, there isn't a stepped elevator. Any change would be to stand up the leaf and move the slider up or down as desired. The number scale isnt yardage, just a reference scale. If it were yardage, they would be increasingly far apart as the range increased.

The early guns weren't drilled and tapped for receiver sights. Make your own call if you want to do that to a gun of that vintage.

Good picture showing the two different types of sighting notches on early type carbine sights. The two on the right would be what was found on the so-called "saddle ring carbines",(would also include otherwise identical guns without rings, known as "eastern carbines") which would have started changing in the late 20's, and I believe some time in the 30's was most common to see the rifle type sights with the step elevator.

http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/12240/12498730_2.jpg?v=8CEEBAFBA7F55D0

 

[M100C]

Malamute,
The rightmost sight is my carbine sight.

All,
Thanks for posting. I have a definitive answer from a 1931 sales catalog:

So, witchhunter is right; I guess tip of blade should be barely visible in ladder sight notch (will bring down POI).
And ColtPythonElite is right; 6 o'clock hold and then some.

To me, not intuitive, but I'll try it!

 

[Malamute]

Let us know how it works out.

I have a wide V notch sight and a small U notch sight. In making my own blade I sighted it the same as I do all other open sights for simplicity sake. Youre right, it isn't intuitive.

Do you have the rest of that image of the sighting instructions? Its a nice piece of history. I'd like to see the part not shown. Thanks for posting it.

 

[M100C]

Malamute,
As you wish! I could not scan these, but I took the best pic I could. Enjoy!

Front: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23054315/Photo%20Dec%2020%2C%208%2010%2055%20AM.jpg

Back: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23054315/Photo%20Dec%2020%2C%208%2011%2043%20AM.jpg

 

[243winxb]

30-30 WCF Model 94

Change bullet weight or hand load. In a hunting situation, you wont be thinking about how much front bead is visible. It will set automatically. Put up a large deer target at 50 yards, shoot at it. See when the group centers.

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[Malamute]

Malamute,
As you wish! I could not scan these, but I took the best pic I could. Enjoy

Excellent, thank you!

What book or publication was this from? I think I may need a copy.

Was there any discussion in it of using the rifle type sights elevator steps for various ranges? In The Winchester Book, Madis writes that the steps were intended to be set up as the lowest being 50 yards, and each step up another 50 yards. There were different elevators for different cartridges. The small slider held in place by the tiny screw allows fine tuning of the first step (later guns had two small screws holding the sighting part and allowing adjustment), or whatever one chooses for their baseline. Made sense when I read it, the steps not being just a non-specific adjustment to sight in with randomly.

 

[PapaG]

A year or so ago Dave Scovill had an article about lever actions and open sights. His study showed that Winchester "normally" had their guns regulated for 100 yards in the second lowest notch of the rear sight and that the bottom notch was for 50 and the other ones added 50 yards each.
Now, two common bullet weights are available, 150 and 170 (plus the Leverevolution 165) so some experimentation might be in order.
I've found with my Marlin 30-30 that the 170 hits a few inches higher at 100 yards than the 150 (probably more barrel time) which is opposite of what most of my rifles do.
Brian Pearce recommended holding the forend with the support hand under the wood and on top of your rest and pulling the gun tight against the shoulder. Seems to help me.