Winchester Mod. 12 (1912) help

[gembob]

I've been searching for some help with a winchester model 12 I inherited for a while now with local gunsmiths, antique firearm dealers and even Winchester themselves and have just been more and more confused so I thought I would present my problems here and see if I could get any help. The only guns I've owned previously are handguns and I'm not at all familiar with shotguns.

The gun was manufactured in 1918 (determined from serial number) and I've been told by a gunsmith that it was in good working condition and that it fires 2 3/4" shells. Winchester told me that all pre-1927 (or some year near that) model 12's are chambered in 2 1/2". I was also told by a local gunsmith that 2 3/4" and 2 1/2" shells are the same until they're fired and the gun will be fine shooting 2 3/4" shells even though it may be chambered for 2 1/2". Is that true? Will I be okay firing 2 3/4" shells through this gun, so long as they aren't steel shot (nickle barrel)? Having been told this I have tried to cycle a few rounds of live 2 3/4" shells through the gun and have occassionally run into trouble with the rounds chambering. They seem to get stuck and I have to reach in and manually extract them. It doesn't happen every time, but enough that it's a concern. Is this just something I'm going to have to deal with in an old gun? Should I take it to another gunsmith? Could this be fixed by a good cleaning? I appreciate the advice in advance.

 

[Dave McCracken]

First, 2 3/4 and 2.5" shells are not the same thing. Shooting shells longer than the chamber runs pressures up badly.

Being it's a Model 12, your shotgun probably won't blow up, but they're not good for it.

Or you.

Some short chambered shotguns, including Model 12s, have been altered to take longer shells. A REAL smith can tell you if yours has been done.

As for the sticking shells, clean the chamber and check for rust and pits.

BTW, what guage is it?

I wouldn't use ANY non toxic shot in this.

 

[10X]

You received good advice from Dave McCracken.

First of all, is this a 12 gauge? If so, take a fired empty and try it in the gun. If the ends get scrunched or pinched in from the barrel the chamber remains a 2 1/2" chamber. You risk damage to the gun and yourself by firing 2 3/4" shells in it.

You will need to find another barrel or find a smith with experience to lengthen the chamber.

In the thrilling days of yesteryear, there was another style of closing the shell. What did they call that, an end crimp? There was only a bit of the shell body that rolled over to hold a flat paper that held the shot in. The idea is that when shot there isn't as much length. I don't suppose anyone makes them like that anymore.

 

[gembob]

Sorry I should have included this info, it is 12 gauge. I will try to get my hands on a fired empty, and also take it into a gunsmith. If the chamber hasn't been modified to accept 2 3/4" shells will doing so reduce the collecters value? Thanks for all the help so far, oh and the ammo that I've been cycling through it is Winchester Universal.

 

[3pairs12]

No I don't believe it will. There is a big market for model 12s. Since 2 3/4 shells are most common variety today it should be fine.

 

[Dave McCracken]

10X, that's a roll crimp. Still around but hard to find outside places like Ballistic Products.

2.5" shells are available from Gamebore, Polywad, and BP.

 

[kirbythegunsmith]

Details

The conversion of a Model 12 (and others) to 2-3/4" involves more than just the chamber length, since the ejection port is usually not sufficiently cleared for the open crimp.
Feed and ejection parts may have need of alteration in conversions, also. Browning 16 ga. need to have the forearm wood cut to allow the barrel to extend a small amount out of the frame that hadn't been necessary with the shorter shells, for example.

What you describe reminds me of difficulty completing the pump cycle to get the shell forward into the chamber, or do you have the shell completely into the chamber and the bolt practically closed?
Then you are talking about having to manually extract them, so did they never get hooked by the extractors? That is what makes me think that you didn't get the pumping more than barely started, so balky feeding, crimp hitting the rim edge of the chamber ring, bent carrier, etc. are just a few examples that may interfere with correct operation.

Here is what a port might look like that isn't recut:



Here is one being recut and fitted.



Easier to comprehend with pictures, wouldn't you say?

[email protected]

 

[gembob]

Kirby-
Your initial assumption is correct, I'm having difficulty completing the pump cycle and getting the shell forward into the chamber.

 

[kirbythegunsmith]

Details

Well, gembob,
I guess this is the time to remind everyone that one of my specialties is Model-12 work, since I missed that chance the last posting.

Just in case you have need for a trained and experienced gunsmith to fix your treasure, you know that I am here.


These posts are related to Model-12, and contain useful information from me.
If you think these are helpful, and you want to see more, just look for more of my postings here and there (SGW).

This one has tests to determine basic problems to help avoid buying a lemon:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109709&highlight=

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109976&highlight=

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=122268&highlight=

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=117360&highlight=

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=116266&highlight=



This is something I wrote in response to a shooter wanting his gun refurbished, but with an emphasis on cosmetics, so here goes.


I understand that you would like the metal to have looks that match the fancy wood. Refinishing is something I could do, but the nature of my work is concentrated toward the mechanical repair, refurbishment, and optimization.

What you are wanting, so far, seems to be "cosmetic" refurbishment. I would recommend that you could have me give the mechanism a thorough checkover, let you know what may need attention now or sometime in the future, and delineate possibilities for improvements to enhance the wear life of the mechanism. These recommendations would be tailored to your expected shooting requirements i.e. occasional, regular, or whatever.

After the mechanicals are the way you want, then the refinishing can be done, and not risk the finish doing mechanical work.

I have done all types of woodwork from carving stocks from a blank, to refinishing and checkering, and reblue work of all types, starting when I was in gunsmithing school and also when I worked at other shops thereafter.

When I opened my place, I decided that there were plenty of people that could do refinishing in the general area, and the weekend tinkerers would try to low-bid the jobs to get something to do. I guess they didn't want to spend time with the family, or something. The quality of their work was not nearly what I would call acceptable, but the average shooter just wanted color on the metal, and low cost was better, then.

Too many shooters would know a buddy that would slap a couple of coats of finish on a piece of wood, and declare that a refinish job, and a bargain, at that.

When the wood is over-sanded to be below the plane of the metal, the finish is blurped into the inletting, and the stock's lines were sanded into oblivion, I just shake my head when some goof asks me what I think of that cheapo job.

Earl Sheib's gun refinishing would attract a lot of work.

A technical whiz at cosmetic work can gain a following and then be able to charge enough to keep the bills paid, while also keeping the cheapskates at bay. If you spend time trying to be a whiz at mechanical work, also, you might not get to be as good at one or the other, and the learning curve does not get smaller.

I went from the other direction, by concentrating on the stuff that was not necessarily strictly cosmetic, but was highly important to the function and usefulness. I do not ignore things that can alter the looks of a fine firearm, but would rather make sure that anything that is going to be made to look fine should reliably operate for a sufficient lifespan.

I am the mechanic that makes the car go fast and turn tight. Someone else can put on the paint and fix corner dings.

During my schooling, I had more time on the machine shop and welding line and projects than any other student, before or since, except for those that had previous outside jobs in machine shops, for example.

That was to see me through the first job that had me being thrown into a backlog pile of Winchesters, Model 12's and other classics, shotgun choke installs, custom barrel work, milling machine work to rebuild parts, warranty and general repairs, and custom handguns.

Too much to handle for one guy, so they hired a "machinist" to do the machining for the handgun custom work.
He had been running a CNC mill the last couple of years, and one of the first things that he asked me (besides always borrowing tools and repair manuals) was how to cut a thread on the lathe, since he had forgotten.

That's a real confidence builder, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, then I was involved with TIG welding training, grinding new tooling, resharpening, some re-design of processes, and generally making things more the way that I thought that they should be.
Try telling that to a boss that thinks his way is the only way, especially when his way was proven to NOT work properly, and don't you remind him of that, ever.

There you have the first installment of the tale of kirbythegunsmith.

 

[gunut]

All 12ga model 12s have at least a 2 3/4in chamber...with the heavy duck guns having 3in....the 20ga and 16ga had shorter chambers until 1927 or so...

 

[gembob]

So if it's a 12 ga. you're saying it's 2 3/4", for sure? Cause based on the serial number Winchester told me it was 2 1/2". This is the confusion I'm talking about. Think I'll just take it to a gunsmith.

Kirby-
You're the expert, do you have a weigh in? Doesn't look like the chamber's been cut based upon your pictures.

 

[JoeG52]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1912

"The majority of "modern" Model 12 shotguns manufactured after the 1930's were chambered for 2¾-inch shotgun shells, only. Some early Model 12's, however, were chambered for 2 9/16-inch shotgun shells. To add further confusion, some of these early Model 12's have subsequently been modified, with their chambers lengthened to accept 2¾-inch shotgun shells, while others remain in their factory-stock 2 9/16-inch chamber lengths. Careful inspection by a gunsmith is always recommended to determine whether or not it is safe to fire a modern 2¾-inch shotgun shell in older Model 12's."

 

[Red Label]

I too have several model 12s and from my understanding, like gunnut, is that all of the 12ga. were 2 3/4. With that said and the cycling problems you are having you need to take it to a gunsmith anyway. Just do it! Find another reputable smith and have him go over it. It sounds like the first guy was dangerous to say the least. You never want to fire a longer shell than the chamber is made for!

 

[kirbythegunsmith]

Details

I find the Wiki screed amusing, since the predominant shorter shell size for US (esp. Winchester) 12 and 20 ga. was the 2-1/2", and the 16 ga. was 2-9/16", although there were many other competing shell sizes available. I had a 16 ga. AH Fox here that had 2-1/4" chambers (from about 1913).

Here is the definite check for your port size, shown from an early M-12 (200,000) without a chamber length mark on the barrel.



See that the tail end of the scale is against the ejector edge, and from there to the open end of the port is 2.9" or so. Why shouldn't it be 2-3/4"? See the shell in the port?



The end will clear OK on the outer edge, but the shell is a CYLINDER in 3 dimensions, and the scale is basically 2-dimensional. Here the other edge clearance is a bit closer.



Now you can decide who needs to be the one to verify that the chamber length is OK, as well, but since you need the mechanism reworked to pump forward properly, that 'smith can check the chamber length, as well.

Here is your Winchester lesson on chamber length. All of these measurements of the barrel section need the chamber ring section length of .25" or so (M-12 just measured was .243" chamber ring face to bolt face) added, since the chamber ring is fixed in the frame (except in Featherweight M-12).

Just measured 3 barrels of original internal chamber contour:
Classic Nickel Steel barrel of undetermined age, no chamber length marked, 2.35" to start of forcing cone taper
Modern era barrel, Winchester Proof Steel, marked 2-3/4", 2.35" again
Modern era Magnum (for Super Speed and Super-X) Winchester Proof Steel, marked 3", 2.6" to start of taper.

See, Winchester barrels for Model 12, 97, 37, and others were all cut to these dimensions of slightly less length than the maximum expected shell length, as were some other guns, (from Remington, for instance) like the Model 10 and cousin 29. They all shot and proofed them at that length, so if someone tells you that your Model 12 Magnum Duck gun has a short chamber, you just tell them that the length was fine for the folks at New Haven, so keep your reamer out of my barrel!

There is no lack of safety with the chamber at the lengths just described due to slight variance with perceived shell length. a 1/8" overlap of the crimp into the base of the forcing cone is negligible. The main problem that is created by shooting a shell longer than the barrel is chambered is the fact that a 3" shell, for example, was designed to be a higher pressure, as well as longer, just like the 3.5" 12 ga. shell, (not counting the new 20 ga. version) is the newest and highest pressure shotgun shell in widespread use. The .410 3" was the previous pressure champ.