WinClean 244 Thoughts

[k4swb]

Anyone using Winchester 244 for multiple handgun loads?

I am only interested in users of WinClean244 and their comments about the same.

I know there are other powders out there and at this time am not interested in them.

Normally I use WST for most loads and make up what’s left with W231.

Running low on both and want to try the WinClean 244 to see how it works for .44mag/spl, .45ACP and 9mm.

All will be used for target plinking and mid-range loads. Paper punching and gong ringing.

On paper this powder looks good for all.

 

[Texas10mm]

I've used it in 9mm. It's a powder and it goes bang.

 

[k4swb]

I've used it in 9mm. It's a powder and it goes bang.

Thanks! That was helpful.

 

[Dudedog]

Haven't really had a chance to test it in .45 yet, just one load, but have chrono numbers for that load.
Hodgdons numbers are interesting in 9mm for some bullets 231 charges are higher for some 244 charges are higher.
Hodgdon data
125 GR. SIE FMJ Winchester 244 .355" 1.090" 3.6 996 27,100 PSI 4.1 1091 32,500 PSI

5" 9mm 1911 S+P SP mixed range brass
String: 6
Date: 8/26/2018
Time: 11:26:36 AM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 986
Low Vel: 957
Ave Vel: 973
Ext Spread: 29
Std Dev: 11
4.0 W244 124 RMR MPR JHP 1.08
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
957 118.668 252.143
978 121.272 263.33
986 122.264 267.656
977 121.148 262.792
968 120.032 257.973
Does not make PF!
This was .1gr underneath Hodgdons Max with a 125
Slower vel wise than I expected.

.45
String: 2
Date: 10/6/2018
Time: 12:03:03 PM
Grains: 230
Hi Vel: 766
Low Vel: 741
Ave Vel: 758
Ext Spread: 25
Std Dev: 11
4.7 W244 230 RMR Plated RN
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
741 170.43 280.392
765 175.95 298.849
766 176.18 299.631
763 175.49 297.289

This is about what I would have expected velocity, starting test looking for about a 170 PF load. (need 165 for major)
Loads seemed to shoot well, powder seems clean.

 

[k4swb]

Haven't really had a chance to test it in .45 yet, just one load, but have chrono numbers for that load.
Hodgdons numbers are interesting in 9mm for some bullets 231 charges are higher for some 244 charges are higher.
Hodgdon data
125 GR. SIE FMJ Winchester 244 .355" 1.090" 3.6 996 27,100 PSI 4.1 1091 32,500 PSI

5" 9mm 1911 S+P SP mixed range brass
String: 6
Date: 8/26/2018
Time: 11:26:36 AM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 986
Low Vel: 957
Ave Vel: 973
Ext Spread: 29
Std Dev: 11
4.0 W244 124 RMR MPR JHP 1.08
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
957 118.668 252.143
978 121.272 263.33
986 122.264 267.656
977 121.148 262.792
968 120.032 257.973
Does not make PF!
This was .1gr underneath Hodgdons Max with a 125
Slower vel wise than I expected.

.45
String: 2
Date: 10/6/2018
Time: 12:03:03 PM
Grains: 230
Hi Vel: 766
Low Vel: 741
Ave Vel: 758
Ext Spread: 25
Std Dev: 11
4.7 W244 230 RMR Plated RN
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
741 170.43 280.392
765 175.95 298.849
766 176.18 299.631
763 175.49 297.289

This is about what I would have expected velocity, starting test looking for about a 170 PF load. (need 165 for major)
Loads seemed to shoot well, powder seems clean.

Thanks for the details.
This last bit is what I'm mostly looking for. Is it clean burning? Meter well? Nothing extreme in load data obtained.
Usable across multiple bullet types/weights.

I'm really wanting to trim supplies down to one or two handgun powders at the most.

When I started out in the '80s, I chronoed everything. Tested EVERY primer available at the time. Tested most powders suitable for my calibers. I had family that owned a gun/reloading shop and had access to anything I wanted at close to cost.

I've shot groups, both small and large at distances near and far. Now I must mostly sit in a chair and ring gongs or punch paper at short (to me) ranges. I am just now getting comfortable letting people see me shooting from sitting positions. Stopped shooting altogether for quite a few years due to embarrassment. Just over the past few years getting back to shooting at all.

I've paid my dues on loading to test everything and now in my old age want to simplify things to a couple of bullets for each caliber to plink with for me and the wife. If I can find one powder to do it all in handguns for me, that will be perfect.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

W244 seems to be as accurate in the .38 Special and 45 ACP as W231 is so far. I will need to do more testing and in other cartridges too. Still have to test the 9mm, 32 Auto, 38 S&W and the 45 Colt.

 

[Walkalong]

Now I must mostly sit in a chair and ring gongs or punch paper at short (to me) ranges. I am just now getting comfortable letting people see me shooting from sitting positions

I shoot sitting all the time, I just like to. We have plastic 55 gallon barrels at the range, and if I set the chrono on top of one and sit on a bench or in a chair I am at just the right height to shoot through it. That way I don't have to get out the tripod and set it up with the chrono. Lazy, I know. I shoot handguns standing, but I shoot sitting a lot as well.

I can assure you I would never make fun of anyone doing what they need to do to continue doing what they love, which is shoot. We adapt as we age, or suffer injuries, or.... whatever.

I bet precious few shooters made fun of you when you started going back. In general, we are better than that as a group.

 

[Dudedog]

Meters well about like W231/HP38, maybe a hair better

As a side note Sport Pistol meters better than W244. (trying it and W244 as well as N330, more testing to do, so many things to test so little time......sigh)

My first thoughts are maybe a sort of improved 231, not hot here now but I will test some in winter and save some for summer when it's 110 in the shade and see how temp sensitive it is. I believe it is supposed to be better than W231 in that regard.

 

[1KPerDay]

. Now I must mostly sit in a chair and ring gongs or punch paper at short (to me) ranges. I am just now getting comfortable letting people see me shooting from sitting positions. Stopped shooting altogether for quite a few years due to embarrassment. Just over the past few years getting back to shooting at all.

Never be embarrassed about what idiots think or may say. And I doubt anyone would say anything other than dang that's a good idea...Wish I'd brought my chair!

 

[1KPerDay]

If you find a better powder than WST for your purposes LMK. It's the bee's knees IMO.

 

[k4swb]

Thanks for all the replies!
What others think of me has never really bothered me. I am my own worst critic. What my problem was/is, I know how well I used to be able to shoot and it was pretty darn good. Most everyone I shot with has passed on and when I shoot now I remember how it was and it bothers me.

If you could see me wobble to and fro, you'd probably want to stay as far from me when I'm shooting as possible and I know I look clumsy as heck at times.

I belong to a club with 1400+ members and don't feel comfortable shooting with about 1390 of them and they probably wouldn't with me either.

Thank goodness I have a patient wife that helps me A LOT when getting set up.
If she's not available, I go to a family farm so I don't scare the rest of the world.
I am plenty safe with my gun handling, but it probably does not look it at a glance.

Now I'm trying to find a pound of WinClean locally and am having no luck whatsoever.
That is te reason for the original question. I'll buy 4-8 pounds if and when I decide but I hate to do that before I have any real info.
There is darn little real world info out there on this powder yet. Google WinClean244 and about all you find is press releases and mag articles announcing the stuff. No real info/help.

 

[Dudedog]

If your thinking about W244 and have to order might want to order some Sport Pistol to try as well.
(or if Sport Pistol is available locally)
I haven't done much testing with it yet but initial results look good and most people who have tried it seem to like it.
Around the same burn speed as W244/W231.

 

[santacruzdave]

The October issue of Handloader magazine (#316) has an article on Win 244 in their "Propellent Profiles" series. Written by R.H. VanDenberg Jr. Double base ball powder with a 37% nitroglycerin content. Slightly faster burning than Win 231, from the same family of powders as Tightgroup. According to the author. The author also remarked on the consistency of results in a large number of cartridges, ranging from 9mm, to 45 colt. with stops along the way at .38 Special, .357 Mag, .44 Special and magnum, .40 S&W and 45 ACP. Features of the powder are flash suppressant, copper fouling reducing agent, excellent metering and consistency with most 5 shot groups showing extreme spreads of less than 5 feet per second. Needless to say R. H. really liked this powder.

 

[LiveLife]

Win 244 ... Slightly faster burning than Win 231

Hodgdon lists W244 slower than W231 in their powder burn rate chart - https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/burn-rate-color.pdf

29 Winchester 231
30 Alliant 20/28
31 Winchester 244

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Hodgdon lists W244 slower than W231 in their powder burn rate chart - https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/burn-rate-color.pdf

They do but as we all know burn rate is relative. They are very close.

 

[Walkalong]

an article on Win 244 in their "Propellent Profiles" series. Written by R.H. VanDenberg Jr. Double base ball powder with a 37% nitroglycerin content.

That is a negative for me, but it would be a positive for many, more energy per pound. It's going to burn hot like Tightgroup unless they figured out a way to cool down high nitro content powders.

Features of the powder are flash suppressant, copper fouling reducing agent, excellent metering and consistency with most 5 shot groups showing extreme spreads of less than 5 feet per second.

Those sound really good though.

 

[santacruzdave]

Clarification on W-244 brun rate from the article: "Winchester powders are listed in order of approximate burning rate from fastest to slowest. W-244 appears before W-231 [indicating that W-244 is slower]. Clearly the burn rate of the two powders are similar, but the load data in the same manual suggests that W-244 is slightly faster burning than W-231, at least with most cartridges and bullet weights."

I wasn't completely clear in my first post on this subject.

 

[Walkalong]

W-244 appears before W-231 [indicating that W-244 is slower]. Clearly the burn rate of the two powders are similar, but the load data in the same manual suggests that W-244 is slightly faster burning than W-231,

The faster it is the sooner it is on the list. #1 is fastest and they slow down from there, so the way I read that W244 is before W-231 indicating it is faster. Or do I misread that? It's how I take sooner anyway.

 

[LiveLife]

W-244 appears before W-231 ... suggests that W-244 is slightly faster burning than W-231

No.

W244 is definitely listed after W231 (#29) in Hodgdon's powder burn rate chart which clearly indicates W244 (#31) is slower burning than W231 - https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/burn-rate-color.pdf

29 Winchester 231
30 Alliant 20/28
31 Winchester 244

If W244 was faster burning than W231, Hodgdon would have listed W244 before W231.

 

[Walkalong]

Is W244 a "flattened" ball powder like W-231?

 

[LiveLife]

I believe so.


And here are some comparison load data from Hodgdon. W244 will definitely make match shooters looking to make minor PF happier - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

• 9mm 124 GR. BERB HBRN TP W231 COL 1.150" Start 3.9 gr (920 fps) 27,400 PSI - Max 4.4 gr (1,037 fps) 31,900 PSI
• 9mm 124 GR. BERB HBRN TP W244 COL 1.150" Start 4.0 gr (1,010 fps) 26,300 PSI - Max 4.5 gr (1,131 fps) 32,600 PSI

For 40S&W, W244 will even make major PF comfortably with 165 gr JHP.

• 40S&W 165 GR. SIE JHP W231 COL 1.125" Start 4.8 gr (946 fps) 28,100 PSI - Max 5.3 gr (1,001 fps) 32,500 PSI
  
• 40S&W 165 GR. SIE JHP W244 COL 1.125" Start 4.9 gr (994 fps) 26,100 PSI - Max 5.5 gr (1,092 fps) 32,600 PSI

 

[Dudedog]

.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/n330-ba9-or-something-else.838860/page-2
Pics of W244, HP38

(if you zoom with your browser you can see them better 400% works good)

My load with 4,.0gr W244 and a MPR 125 at 1.08 did not make PF out of my 5" 1911.
Could go .1 gr more which would be what Hodgdon lists as a max for a different 125.
Numbers for W244 in 9mm are a bit stranjge if you look at Hodgdons data.
Some bullets list more W231 than W244 other are the other way around.