Reloading Formula for 357 Magnum Auto Winchester 244

[stchman]

Hello all. I am looking for some advice on reloading 357 Magnum using Winchester 244.

I was using Hi-Skor 800-X

I used 7.0 grains of powder when reloading both 10mm Auto and 357 Magnum. This formula made perfect sense as 10mm and 357 are very similar rounds as far as performance. I used up all my 800-X and switched to Winchester 244.

According to Hodgdon,

For 10mm Auto, I use between 6.1gr and 6.8gr of 244 for a 180gr(LSWC) bullet. I dropped 6.5gr.

For 357 Magnum, I use between 3.9gr and 6.0gr for a 158gr(LSWC) bullet. I dropped 5.5gr

Made some test loads and the 10mm Auto works great, the 357 feel like 38 Special.

I know this might be a touch long winded, but when I was using 800-X I used the same amount of powder for each (7.0gr) round so it only makes sense to use the same amount for each in 244.

Problem is, the 6.5gr is above the max load for 357 according to Hodgdon.

Has anyone went above the 6.0gr on 357 for 158gr bullet? Am I inviting disaster for going 1gr over the formula?

Thanks.

 

[243winxb]

Has anyone went above the 6.0gr on 357 for 158gr bullet?

I have not. Still looking for chronograph Reloading Data velocity. Seem like a lite target load.https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...wder-357-mag-with-164gr-cast-158-mold.905784/

6.0 grs is listed ar 1250 fps by Hodgdon. 158 gr lswc.

 

[Charlie98]

The fact that you dropped the same charge with 800X was coincidence, W244 is a different powder... much faster than 800X. FWIW, you are not going to get Magnum-level loads out of W244 in the .357.

You probably need to rethink that switch to W244... for something more in line with the burn rate of 800X.

 

[stchman]

I have not. Still looking for chronograph Reloading Data velocity. Seem like a lite target load.https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...wder-357-mag-with-164gr-cast-158-mold.905784/

6.0 grs is listed ar 1250 fps by Hodgdon. 158 gr lswc.

I don't own a chronograph, but I did try 5.5gr and it felt kind of weak. I will try the max at 6.0gr. The 244 works great for .45LC and now 10mm Auto. I did load some 244 in my 44 Mag at 9.5gr with a 240gr LSWC and it was pretty nice. I may bump it up to 10gr and see how it performs as 10.2gr is the listed max.

I often wondered how they arrive at the "max" designation? Is it just that was the max they tried?

 

[Charlie98]

I often wondered how they arrive at the "max" designation? Is it just that was the max they tried?

There are a number of different criteria, I suppose. Trying to push cast bullets at maximum .357MAG pressure, for example, rarely results in good accuracy, so they might not provide loading data to max pressure, where they would with a jacketed bullet. Further, you use a powder like W244, which is quite fast for that purpose, and the variables will start to stack up against you... so the closer you get to maximum (SAAMI) pressure, the more volatile it can become.

If you want to see the difference... pull up Hodgdon's load data online. 10mm, 180grn bullet, and put W244 and 800X in the powder choice. Now... look at the data. The lower pressure charge of 800X gives you higher velocity than the same bullet with a nearly max pressure load of W244.

 

[243winxb]

Hodgdon pressure @ 27,800 PSI is lower then normal. A lswc may lead the barrel at higher pressure/velocity? SAAMI is 35,000 PSI maximum.

Load data to compare. Lead vs Jacketed.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/albums/load-data-lead-vs-jacketed-bullets.265/



Note: 10" barrel make a big velocity difference.

Sorry about this heavy print.

 

[stchman]

There are a number of different criteria, I suppose. Trying to push cast bullets at maximum .357MAG pressure, for example, rarely results in good accuracy, so they might not provide loading data to max pressure, where they would with a jacketed bullet. Further, you use a powder like W244, which is quite fast for that purpose, and the variables will start to stack up against you... so the closer you get to maximum (SAAMI) pressure, the more volatile it can become.

If you want to see the difference... pull up Hodgdon's load data online. 10mm, 180grn bullet, and put W244 and 800X in the powder choice. Now... look at the data. The lower pressure charge of 800X gives you higher velocity than the same bullet with a nearly max pressure load of W244.

I see that, then I pull up .44 Magnum (I had to do the CUP to PSI conversion as 800-X chamber pressure is in CUP). The 244 delivers near the same velocity of 800-X with far less chamber pressure (35,100 vs. 42131(39,600CUP)) and uses less powder.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I see that, then I pull up .44 Magnum (I had to do the CUP to PSI conversion as 800-X chamber pressure is in CUP). The 244 delivers near the same velocity of 800-X with far less chamber pressure (35,100 vs. 42131(39,600CUP)) and uses less powder.

Ah. Well. Then just keep adding powder until you get a kaboom. It shouldn't take long.

 

[Charlie98]

I had to do the CUP to PSI conversion

There isn't really any reliable way to convert CUP to PSI; further... the way the data was obtained is different, and not as a reliable an indicator as modern (PSI) technique.

Yes, a faster powder will use less charge weight... I'm not saying you aren't going to pay a penalty for using a slower powder. I guess you don't see what I'm trying to say.... In the .44MAG example, they are pushing those bullets to .44MAG velocities, the 800X is at a higher pressure because that's how it works, very similar to W296 and some other slower powders. Faster powders, like W244, don't need a full (heavy) charge to do their job, that's why they are very good for low- and mid-range loads; pushing fast powders to their upper limits can be done, sure, but I think there is a better way to skin a cat.

 

[stchman]

Ah. Well. Then just keep adding powder until you get a kaboom. It shouldn't take long.

No, I am not going to do that. I was simply talking about adding 0.5gr to 1.0gr additional, not packing 30gr of powder in the case.

 

[lordpaxman]

I know this might be a touch long winded, but when I was using 800-X I used the same amount of powder for each (7.0gr) round so it only makes sense to use the same amount for each in 244.

That doesn’t make sense to me. There’s a reason behind the published load data, and starting at the start charge. It’s a good thing you’re not loading with Titegroup. I’ve successfully developed loads for W244 in a number of calibers and it’s proven to be an acceptable “buy again” powder. That hasn’t included the .357, yet, but I would imagine it’d be good for a target to mid-range load. There are cases for exceeding the published maximums, if you post that here there’s a disclaimer THR wants you to include.

 

[wcwhitey]

In the .357 5.0 grains under an XTremeX 158 plated SWC gave me tack driving accuracy and a squeaky clean round. I did 5.5 under a 158 lead SWC and found it okay, never went higher. Just from my experience anything above the 5.5 is not where a ball powder should be roaming. Ball powders make great SV loads and some nice medium/light magnums.

 

[Charlie98]

No, I am not going to do that. I was simply talking about adding 0.5gr to 1.0gr additional, not packing 30gr of powder in the case.

I think the point he (...and I...) was trying to make is... ramping up a faster powder like W244 to max data to try to eek out the velocity you want isn't the best idea. Look at it this way... you had very good results with 800X.... no? The reason you did is because of the slower burn characteristic of that powder, you were able to meet your velocity requirements with ease, most likely.

Understand... I like W244. I tested with it a bit in both 9mm and .45ACP, where it gave reasonable results, but it barely reached my velocity goal in those cartridges... I had to max the data in the 9mm, and go over published data in the .45ACP (using a longer COL) in the .45ACP. I never even bothered with it in .41 or .45 Colt... it's too fast. Loading for the cartridges you list, given you want higher performance... ? I wouldn't even consider W244... or any other powder faster than Unique/Universal/AA#5, etc.

 

[Walkalong]

I don't own a chronograph, but I did try 5.5gr and it felt kind of weak. I will try the max at 6.0gr. The 244 works great for .45LC and now 10mm Auto. I did load some 244 in my 44 Mag at 9.5gr with a 240gr LSWC and it was pretty nice. I may bump it up to 10gr and see how it performs as 10.2gr is the listed max.

I often wondered how they arrive at the "max" designation? Is it just that was the max they tried?

Pressure, stop at max.

 

[mdi]

That doesn’t make sense to me. There’s a reason behind the published load data, and starting at the start charge. It’s a good thing you’re not loading with Titegroup. I’ve successfully developed loads for W244 in a number of calibers and it’s proven to be an acceptable “buy again” powder. That hasn’t included the .357, yet, but I would imagine it’d be good for a target to mid-range load. There are cases for exceeding the published maximums, if you post that here there’s a disclaimer THR wants you to include.

100% correct. "Reloading 101" start a load workup with the manual's suggested starting powder charge and work up if necessary. The highest I would go with a new load (new to me cartridge, powder, bullet, etc.) is 10% below max...

 

[Walkalong]

I see that, then I pull up .44 Magnum (I had to do the CUP to PSI conversion as 800-X chamber pressure is in CUP). The 244 delivers near the same velocity of 800-X with far less chamber pressure (35,100 vs. 42131(39,600CUP)) and uses less powder.

No way it does that. It's too fast to equal 800X velocity and stay under pressure

 

[AJC1]

Think of your powder as trucks. You may see a comercial where a f150 pulls a semi a few feet and that's great. A magnum powder #9, 2400, h100 is that high torque diesel engine doing that heavy moving. Fast powders are that f150 that can move the semi, but it's not a great idea and will wear out everything much faster... loosing a chamber is far worse than blowing a transmission......

 

[stchman]

No way it does that. It's too fast to equal 800X velocity and stay under pressure

From Hodgdon website for .44 Magnum. Charlie98 did say that there is no reliable way to convert from CUP to PSI so I don't know how good this data is.

 

[Walkalong]

From Hodgdon website for .44 Magnum. Charlie98 did say that there is no reliable way to convert from CUP to PSI so I don't know how good this data is.

Ok, so they have .44 Mag data that shows velocities you like, use it, but that in no way makes your statement true

I see that, then I pull up .44 Magnum (I had to do the CUP to PSI conversion as 800-X chamber pressure is in CUP). The 244 delivers near the same velocity of 800-X with far less chamber pressure

or make me doubt my statement.

No way it does that. It's too fast to equal 800X velocity and stay under pressure

It will create more pressure in the .44 Mag with the W-244 vs 800-X because it's much faster and will peak sooner.

I would have to see proof those pressures are correct.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I think the point he (...and I...) was trying to make is... ramping up a faster powder like W244 to max data to try to eek out the velocity you want isn't the best idea. Look at it this way... you had very good results with 800X.... no? The reason you did is because of the slower burn characteristic of that powder, you were able to meet your velocity requirements with ease, most likely.

Yes and No. The point I failed to make is, once you start to see signs of excess pressure, it’s too late; you are already in a dangerous situation. We’re dealing with nitro here. It does strange things when exposed to heat and pressure. The difference between a proofing load and a rapid disassembly can be as little as a grain of powder - under the wrong conditions. Most loading data has a generous buffer built into it by the testing lab; but even a generous buffer can’t account for all of the variables.
Exceeding published results is a risk. Some people roll the dice knowing even if they go too far, there’s a higher limit that’s still not guaranteed to be unsafe. Exceeding that limit… well, then you are into an area guaranteed to be unsafe.

 

[length_of_pull_1]

I've loaded MBC 158gr lswc coated, up to 6.0 gr with 244. No funky primers and the brass fell out of the cylinder. I think you could go up a little and not blow your face off, but why would you want to? At that charge weight there was a little lead in my barrel with their 12 brinell hardness projectiles. You could try 18 and see how those fare. I have four different powder measures and they all adjust easily and 244 meters really well. Save some anguish and use the proper data.

 

[Walkalong]

I agree with the last two posters, with the faster W-244 pressure is going to go up faster as you approach max, and a small increase can mean a large pressure increase at/near the top, use published data, like you showed, start low, work up, and don't assume their is extra room to go past max without issue.

A slower powder is going to be more forgiving as you approach max, but that isn't a license to go over max either.

Recoil is also going to be sharper, perhaps to the point of unpleasant with fast vs medium vs slow powders, assuming similar velocities.
Lets say W-244, 800X, W-296.

We have so much good tested data there is no reason to try to interpolate other data, and as always, start low and work up, for those who fail to do that, they will sooner or later get into trouble, possible even injuring themselves. Y'all be careful out there.

 

[wcwhitey]

I mentioned that 5.0 grains is the sweet spot with a 158 SWC in an earlier post. Tried it, tested it was happy. No way was it over 1200 fps and that is a good thing unless you are using gas checked lead SWC’s. My load is sub 1100 and worked with plated and lead. 5.5 felt more like a magnum but was not near as accurate or clean shooting. So my question is are you looking for a nice accurate round that leaves your gun lead free or are you looking to make fireballs with lead SWC’s? If you want a good shooting round 5.0 is your starting load and work up a tenth at a time from there until accuracy falls off. Still never gonna be a 1200 fps plus round without making a mess using a fast burning ball powder and a lead SWC.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I’m curious why someone interested in loading .357 and 10mm isn’t looking at Accurate No.7. It’s in the same burn family as 800X, is readily available online from reputable dealers, and has scads of data for both cartridges.

 

[AJC1]

The starting charge of true blue at 8.8 grains is almost 1200fps in a 4" and accurate.