Has anyone found WinClean 244's "sweet spot" yet? (.38 S&W)

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Yes, another .38 S&W thread. It just won't die.
I have some 200gr. .361" bullets coming from Matt's and it got me thinking about which powder to use. 1.6gr. Bullseye is a nice load. So are 1.8gr. of W231 and 2.0gr. of Unique. I typically like Unique for ".380/200 Mk.1 Webley" loads. 2gr. nails 620fps from my Webley.
I've tried WinClean 244 with 145gr. .360" Missouri Bullets in .38S&W and was it was kinda "meh" Not as accurate as W231, not as clean as No.2, not as fast as Bullseye...
Besides 9mm plinking loads, what does this powder really do well? Does it do anything as well as W231?

 

[mcb]

I am using Herco under that 200 gr bullet. I did not get the velocity I wanted with Bullseye. Unfortunately I have never had a chance to play with 244 so not much help there.

 

[Ovendoctor]

just getting started on the 38 S&W reloading so I am very interested in this thread
looking at 148 gr. HBWC for starters ,, figure the soft cast lead skirt will make up the difference in dia.

Mike

 

[Walkalong]

just getting started on the 38 S&W reloading so I am very interested in this thread
looking at 148 gr. HBWC for starters ,, figure the soft cast lead skirt will make up the difference in dia.

Mike

Those will work just fine, but just like in .38 Spl, use care not to blow out the front of the WC and leave the skirt behind, although that shouldn't be an issue in .38 S&W.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Those will work just fine, but just like in .38 Spl, use care not to blow out the front of the WC and leave the skirt behind, although that shouldn't be an issue in .38 S&W.

Best way to blow the skirt off is to forget to adjust the seating stem and seat it too deep. I know cause I’ve done it.

 

[Walkalong]

All the powders I have used in .38 S& have been a bit faster than W-244, but it should work well. Work up in .1 increments, it's just too easy to go over pressure, trust me.

I would try WST over 244 if you have some. Be even more careful.

 

[Docendo Discimus]

Those will work just fine, but just like in .38 Spl, use care not to blow out the front of the WC and leave the skirt behind, although that shouldn't be an issue in .38 S&W.

Best way to blow the skirt off is to forget to adjust the seating stem and seat it too deep. I know cause I’ve done it.

I have read about this and understand the mechanics, but I have never understood what can cause that or how to prevent it. Could you explain?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

All the powders I have used in .38 S& have been a bit faster than W-244, but it should work well. Work up in .1 increments, it's just too easy to go over pressure, trust me.

I would try WST over 244 if you have some. Be even more careful.

I do have WST. I will try it but that still leaves me with 3lbs of W244 that’s not good for much. It’s not better at anything than W231 and needs a bigger load to do as much.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I have read about this and understand the mechanics, but I have never understood what can cause that or how to prevent it. Could you explain?

It’s about seating depth and roll crimping. Most people seat HBWC’s flush but if you do that with the short .38S&W case, you push the pressure too high for the thinner bullet head and blow the cap off, leaving the skirt somewhere between the case mouth and the end of the barrel. Something similar happens if you seat to the right depth but over crimp the larger case into the soft lead of the bullet. Most HBWC are antimonial lead. About 5BHN - dead soft - and don’t react well to being over pressure. You really don’t even need to roll crimp HBWC’s typically. Just neck tension or maybe a taper crimp is good.

 

[vaalpens]

Besides 9mm plinking loads, what does this powder really do well? Does it do anything as well as W231?

I don't have a .38 S&W, but I have good W244 loads in the standard pistol cartridges: 9mm, 357sig, 40S&W, 45acp. With good I probably mean accurate plinking rounds.

What do you mean with "sweet spot"?.

 

[wcwhitey]

So far for range/target ammo I have had good luck with Win244 in .44 Special, .45 ACP, .38/357 Magnum all with lead bullets. I have had success with .32 Long DEWC’s as well. That is where it ends. Data is limited but where I found it worked. Although it has been touted as a replacement for 231 and the burn rate is similar to 231/HP38 it’s not a direct comparison.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I don't have a .38 S&W, but I have good W244 loads in the standard pistol cartridges: 9mm, 357sig, 40S&W, 45acp. With good I probably mean accurate plinking rounds.

What do you mean with "sweet spot"?.

Low, medium or high pressure. For example, it’s well documented that W296’s “sweet spot” is in the near maximum range. Below that and it’s less useful. Same thing for Blue Dot. Not all powder is like that; in fact I’d say very few. Which is why I ask

 

[kalielkslayer]

Like you, I have lbs of W244, because it was available.

Haven’t decided what I’ll do with mine either. Probably 9mm plinking loads.

But it was available when next to nothing else was.

 

[Walkalong]

that still leaves me with 3lbs of W244 that’s not good for much. It’s not better at anything than W231 and needs a bigger load to do as much.

Same conclusion I came to.

 

[Walkalong]

I have read about this and understand the mechanics, but I have never understood what can cause that or how to prevent it. Could you explain?

The skirt is long and has a lot of drag, and the front is very short and isn't attached by anything but that thin skirt, so it can tear loose and leave on its own.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Same conclusion I came to.

WARNING: Bad loading practice comments below. DO NOT DO THIS!!!

I’m giving serious thought to using W231 data for .38S&W and an MBC 145gr LRN as a starting point. If it gets close to 750fps and hits within an inch of POA at 25yds from the 4” Police Positive I’ll be happy.

 

[wcwhitey]

Same conclusion I came to.

If 231 Or HP38 were available I would have went there first simply because of the amount of available data. But my 3 lbs won’t go to waste. A posted a few times about using it in the .44 Special, a great range load using 200 Grain RNFP’s. I posted about a hyper accurate combo with 158 Grain SWC’s in .357. I have developed a .32 Long 100 Grain DEWC load that is very nice. .45 ACP and 200 SWC also run very well. So it’s not a loss, it’s clean and runs predictable. Seems that it’s pressure preference is somewhere in the medium range just below max suggested loads. My complaint and this again is repeated is the lack of good data. Most say you can just use 231 and HP38 Data, I have not found that to be true. It’s a sibling but not a twin. It’s been a bird in the hand, has kept me shooting when supplies were getting low. Would I buy more now that HP38 is back on the shelves, probably not! The most accurate combo is the .357 one but that is a 1000 fps load. I will keep a pound around for that, will last me a decade as I rarely shoot .357.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

If 231 Or HP38 were available I would have went there first simply because of the amount of available data. But my 3 lbs won’t go to waste. A posted a few times about using it in the .44 Special, a great range load using 200 Grain RNFP’s. I posted about a hyper accurate combo with 158 Grain SWC’s in .357. I have developed a .32 Long 100 Grain DEWC load that is very nice. .45 ACP and 200 SWC also run very well. So it’s not a loss, it’s clean and runs predictable. Seems that it’s pressure preference is somewhere in the medium range just below max suggested loads. My complaint and this again is repeated is the lack of good data. Most say you can just use 231 and HP38 Data, I have not found that to be true. It’s a sibling but not a twin. It’s been a bird in the hand, has kept me shooting when supplies were getting low. Would I buy more now that HP38 is back on the shelves, probably not! The most accurate combo is the .357 one but that is a 1000 fps load. I will keep a pound around for that, will last me a decade as I rarely shoot .357.

Maybe that’s been my problem. I’m starting too low and not getting enough pressure up.

 

[wcwhitey]

I cannot speak to the .38 S&W but for instance, website data for Win244 with a .32 Long HBWC is 1.8-2.1. 9,500 - 11,300 CUP. Lyman’s has 231 2.0-2.3 and HP38 1.9-2.2 same bullet. Not that far apart in volume to where you will be at with the .38 S&W, so tenths matter more down there. I loaded from the starting 1.8 with a 100 Grain DEWC in the long up to 2.0 Win244. The 1.8 was softer and shot better, clean no pressure signs. No chronograph, SWAG would be 700 FPS. Seems like it liked the 10,000 CUP range best. Test gun was a .32 H&R Mag revolver. Anywhere I could do a direct comparison the WIn244 load data was slightly lower than the 231/HP38 data.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I cannot speak to the .38 S&W but for instance, website data for Win244 with a .32 Long HBWC is 1.8-2.1. 9,500 - 11,300 CUP. Lyman’s has 231 2.0-2.3 and HP38 1.9-2.2 same bullet. Not that far apart in volume to where you will be at with the .38 S&W, so tenths matter more down there. I loaded from the starting 1.8 with a 100 Grain DEWC in the long up to 2.0 Win244. The 1.8 was softer and shot better, clean no pressure signs. No chronograph, SWAG would be 700 FPS. Seems like it liked the 10,000 CUP range best. Test gun was a .32 H&R Mag revolver. Anywhere I could do a direct comparison the WIn244 load data was slightly lower than the 231/HP38 data.

Interesting. With 200gr LSWC .45ACP I look for 850fps. 5.0gr W231 is very good but it takes 5.5gr of W244 for the same velocity. The Hodgdon data says 5.1 is starting and should be close to 880fps but their data seems a little optimistic. I prefer to start low and work up using published data but in the absence of data…

 

[wcwhitey]

Interesting. With 200gr LSWC .45ACP I look for 850fps. 5.0gr W231 is very good but it takes 5.5gr of W244 for the same velocity. The Hodgdon data says 5.1 is starting and should be close to 880fps but their data seems a little optimistic. I prefer to start low and work up using published data but in the absence of data…

I have been using 5.3 W244 with that combo. That is less than the starting Lyman data for 231 at 5.4. No chronograph data. Works and is accurate. Same thought process I think trying to keep it in the 850-900 target range.

 

[Walkalong]

W-244 worked fine, it just didn't give me a good enough reason to buy more or switch to it for anything I load now.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I have been using 5.3 W244 with that combo. That is less than the starting Lyman data for 231 at 5.4. No chronograph data. Works and is accurate. Same thought process I think trying to keep it in the 850-900 target range.

I have 231 data in the Lymans Third Ed pistol and revolver book for the 195gr flat nose. That’s where I got my Unique load and it works well. I think from your experience I may not do well going with the W231 data for W244. That’s kinda my plan unless somebody had already tried it.
I think I’ll skip it and burn up those three pounds shooting 125gr ACME Green Meanies instead. Unless somebody else has a good working load for the heavy stuff in .38S&W/.380 Mk.1.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Like many of you here I found W244 to work well in anything you can load with W231 but it's not better. If Hodgdon/Winchester ever decides to discontinue W231 I could go to W244 without too much worry. Of course all new loads will have to be worked up but at least we won't be left out in the rain like when they discontinued SR4759. They claim Trailboss is the replacement but it's far from that.

 

[Walkalong]

Of course all new loads will have to be worked up but at least we won't be left out in the rain like when they discontinued SR4759.

AA-5744 is the "replacement" (Use 5744 data) for SR-4759, which I still have some of in the old metal can.