Without the RIA/armscorp would we have a new Colt?

[Anchorite]

I think it’s the perception. When Ford made the Cobra it was just this piece of Americana that was raw, and while out of the reach of many, it embodied what was held dear to the American spirit. Hence we had an entire cottage industry of kit-cars that looked like Cobras but had a 289 under the hood and not a 427 side oiler. Same goes for the old Colts. It’s American heritage, or history. The RIA is a knock-off, but to the casual observer, who really knows? And plenty of folks buy quartz knock-off watches that look like a Rolex from across the room.....same goes for the RIA. Folks *want* the look.....what’s the saying, “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?” Many want the rugged look of American independence and ideal, right?

 

[kozak6]

Except the look is oogly parkerizing and cheesy grips.

I think the main appeal of the M200 is that it is the cheapest DA revolver on the market.

I think Colt's reintroduction hinged on two things:

1. Kimber showed there was interest in a "premium" revolver with their K6 series.

2. "The Walking Dead" blew up the market on vintage Colts, which meant that Colt wouldn't have to compete with their own guns.

 

[CajunBass]

I think Colt reintroduced the Python and others, to make money. Let's face it. The revolver market is doing pretty well, especially when you consider that they have to know there is darn little chance of a military or police order. Smith and Wesson and Ruger seem to be selling all they make (S&W in spite of the lock). Taurus seems to be strong. Kimber is a brand new player but they felt the market was strong enough to jump in with both feet. Colt's own products, used are the peak of used prices, and don't show any real sign of coming down. Even the RIA at least shows there is a market for a revolver still. Why NOT get back into the market? The military isn't buying your (Colt's) rifles anymore. You gotta make SOMETHING.

Speaking of the RIA...It sorta kinda looks like a Colt if you squint your eyes, and let your imagination wander, but I wonder if the average buyer even thinks of Colt when they see it.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Looks like a Ruger Blackhawk. From what I understand, Ruger brought back the old west with their Blackhawk after Colt ceased production for a few years, and after the Blackhawk took off, Colt started making the SAA again. That New Frontier follows the 50s trend to make western revolvers modern?

Yes, they look very similar. Notice how the front sight on the Colt sits a bit back from the muzzle, while the front sight of the Ruger is flush with the muzzle. Notice too that my New Model Blackhawk has protective 'ears' near the rear sight, the Colt does not. The colors have faded a bit, but the Colt has a Case Hardened frame, while the Ruger's frame is blued.








This Three Screw Ruger Blackhawk looks a bit more like the Colt with its flat top. Notice the screw heads on a Ruger Three Screw are on the right side of the frame, the screw heads of a Colt are on the left side of the frame.






The timeline is Colt stopped producing the Single Action Army in 1940. Sales had been pitiful for the preceding years, and production stopped during WWII. Colt had no intention of producing the SAA again when the war ended, they thought no one would be interested in such an old design. What they did not count on was all the new television sets in the living rooms of GIs returning home from the War. Suddenly John Wayne, and Hopalong Cassidy as well as dozens of TV stars were galloping through America's living rooms every week, igniting interest in the old six gun. Ruger introduced his first handgun, the little 22 semi-automatic in 1949. He introduce the little 22 caliber Single Six revolver in 1953 and because of the pent up demand they sold like hot cakes. Ruger introduced the 357 Magnum Blackhawk in 1955. Colt finally saw the handwriting on the wall and reintroduced the SAA as the 2nd Gen in 1956.

The New Frontier was introduced in 1961, the first year of the Kennedy administration. It was named after President Kennedy's New Frontier domestic and foreign programs. He coined the term in his acceptance speech for the Democratic presidential nomination in 1960. Here is an excerpt from that speech, which I have always found inspiring.

"We stand today on the edge of a New Frontier—the frontier of the 1960s, the frontier of unknown opportunities and perils, the frontier of unfilled hopes and unfilled threats. ... Beyond that frontier are uncharted areas of science and space, unsolved problems of peace and war, unconquered problems of ignorance and prejudice, unanswered questions of poverty and surplus."

Colt produced the New Frontier until 1983.

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

What they did not count on was all the new television sets in the living rooms of GIs returning home from the War.

And for that reason when I saw a 3 pack , still sealed, of 50s and 40s western movies on VHS at the thrift store for 3 bucks, I almost bought it. Just for the reminder of history alone. But I decided not to, 3 bucks can be better spent.
Yes that speech is very inspiring and the fact that they named a gun after it makes it better. 1950s was amazing, it was the time of cowboys, of aliens, and of nuclear war. but also the decade of the Colt Python, the S&W model 19, the Blackhawk. It was the decade where floods of surplus World War rifles came to the market and to the disappointment of future collectors, they sporterized near 90% of them at that time. but this belongs in a different thread.

 

[rule303]

My thought is with most manufacturers pushing cheaper poly framed autos and revolvers, along with the astronomical prices being paid for used snake guns, Colt saw an opportunity.

 

[JERRY]

RIA shocked the 1911 world 15 or so years ago with a GI model for $400 that actually was a decent gun. that caused other manufactures to get off their butts and do something similar. it also caused a lot of people to put up defensive shields around their altar and trash talk others... consumers win all the way around when there is competition.

 

[Slamfire]

If Colt introduced anything, it is because management thought they could make a profit on the new models. Someone did a market survey and sold the idea, based on increasing profit. Companies only exist to maximize profits now.

I do hope Colt continues to offer more than just replicas of historical pistols they used to make, but it is a good start.

And for all the pissing on RIA, I am very happy with my RIA 1911. It was $400.00 but with an AT+T gift card, I paid $100 less.



I can't shoot this well, but I can hit my 12" gong target about half the time at 50 yards, so, cheap does not have to mean unreliable or inaccurate. (It's not target accurate though)

 

[Mr. Mosin]

If Colt introduced anything, it is because management thought they could make a profit on the new models. Someone did a market survey and sold the idea, based on increasing profit. Companies only exist to maximize profits now.

I do hope Colt continues to offer more than just replicas of historical pistols they used to make, but it is a good start.

And for all the pissing on RIA, I am very happy with my RIA 1911. It was $400.00 but with an AT+T gift card, I paid $100 less.

View attachment 912679

I can't shoot this well, but I can hit my 12" gong target about half the time at 50 yards, so, cheap does not have to mean unreliable or inaccurate. (It's not target accurate though)

View attachment 912680

It's accurate enough for social work, is it not ? Much the same as the originals ?

 

[Slamfire]

It's accurate enough for social work, is it not ? Much the same as the originals ?

My RIA 1911 is improving, or at least I am improving the more I shoot it. There are only a few differences between it and a WW2 era pistol, the ejection port is different, might be some other dimensional differences. There are so huge differences underneath the parkerization. The slide is 4140 bar stock and the frame is cast 4140 or particle metal 4140 per the manufacturer. WW2 pistols were made of plain carbon steels, case hardened (or salt bath) for hardness. Plain carbon steels are cheap, easy to machine, tough, but they wear out.

I talked to the All Guard Armorer, and looked at the All Guard pistols on the line.



Frames and slides are WW2 inventory. These are made the old fashioned way, frame rails are peened over sized, then grinding compound is applied between the slide and frame, and the slide is beat back and forth till enough material is removed, that the fit is wobble free and tight. Not so tight for the slide to stick. In service these plain carbon steel frames do wear out and require refitting. At some point the Armorer decides there is not enough frame rails left, and the receiver is tossed.

The AMU was using these when I took this photograph.



These guys are shooting 5000 to 7500 rounds a month through these pistols. What I saw on the firing line was Atlanta Arms 185 gr JHP.

you can see the 9mm black boxes in this picture, next time, I plan to take a picture of the 45 ACP stuff



Anyway, AMU shooters are wearing out several sear and hammers a year, a barrel in about three years. But, in the duration of the shooters I talked to (about seven years max on the team) not one of those Caspian Arms pistols needed to be re fitted, or had experienced a slide crack. And the pistols pre date all the shooters on the team. Might have been ten years old at the time. I asked David Sams and was lead to believe these pistols have been around since 2005. Don't quote me. Modern metallurgy is good stuff!

I had a case head blow, in my RIA, and I believe it was due to a bullet set back on feed. The magazine floor plate blew out, spring and follower included, all the remaining rounds, the grips cracked, but you know, once I cleared the jam, I was able to continue shooting. And have continued shooting. I have not tried this with a plain carbon steel pistol, and don't want to try, but I think an older plain carbon steel pistol might have been damaged.

Always wear your shooting glasses! The event happened so quickly, that I was stunned. Recall a boom and a ping but it happened faster than human reaction. Something bruised my chin and there were pin points of pain on the face. But, my eyes were behind shooting glasses and I can still see!

 

[Mr. Mosin]

My RIA 1911 is improving, or at least I am improving the more I shoot it. There are only a few differences between it and a WW2 era pistol, the ejection port is different, might be some other dimensional differences. There are so huge differences underneath the parkerization. The slide is 4140 bar stock and the frame is cast 4140 or particle metal 4140 per the manufacturer. WW2 pistols were made of plain carbon steels, case hardened (or salt bath) for hardness. Plain carbon steels are cheap, easy to machine, tough, but they wear out.

I talked to the All Guard Armorer, and looked at the All Guard pistols on the line.

View attachment 912787

Frames and slides are WW2 inventory. These are made the old fashioned way, frame rails are peened over sized, then grinding compound is applied between the slide and frame, and the slide is beat back and forth till enough material is removed, that the fit is wobble free and tight. Not so tight for the slide to stick. In service these plain carbon steel frames do wear out and require refitting. At some point the Armorer decides there is not enough frame rails left, and the receiver is tossed.

The AMU was using these when I took this photograph.

View attachment 912788

These guys are shooting 5000 to 7500 rounds a month through these pistols. What I saw on the firing line was Atlanta Arms 185 gr JHP.

you can see the 9mm black boxes in this picture, next time, I plan to take a picture of the 45 ACP stuff

View attachment 912789

Anyway, AMU shooters are wearing out several sear and hammers a year, a barrel in about three years. But, in the duration of the shooters I talked to (about seven years max on the team) not one of those Caspian Arms pistols needed to be re fitted, or had experienced a slide crack. And the pistols pre date all the shooters on the team. Might have been ten years old at the time. I asked David Sams and was lead to believe these pistols have been around since 2005. Don't quote me. Modern metallurgy is good stuff!

I had a case head blow, in my RIA, and I believe it was due to a bullet set back on feed. The magazine floor plate blew out, spring and follower included, all the remaining rounds, the grips cracked, but you know, once I cleared the jam, I was able to continue shooting. And have continued shooting. I have not tried this with a plain carbon steel pistol, and don't want to try, but I think an older plain carbon steel pistol might have been damaged.

Always wear your shooting glasses! The event happened so quickly, that I was stunned. Recall a boom and a ping but it happened faster than human reaction. Something bruised my chin and there were pin points of pain on the face. But, my eyes were behind shooting glasses and I can still see!

Always thought 4140 *was* your run of the mill high carbine steel ?

 

[Slamfire]

Always thought 4140 *was* your run of the mill high carbine steel ?

It was used in the M1 Carbine but not in the M1 Garand. The 8620 steel used in the Garand is the absolute minimum grade for the application. Based on examination of properties, and that 4140 is still a primary receiver steel, I believe 4140 must be a "higher" grade material. I asked Steve Earle why he made the receiver of his Fraser Rifle action from 8620, not 4140, and it is because buyers want case hardened colors and 4140 either does not case harden well, or does not give the brilliant colors that buyers want. However, if you notice, the breech block is 4140.

These steels all date back from WW2 and if someone wants to spend even more money, I am certain there are steels that are even "better" if the owner is planning on blowing up his rifle action on a regular basis.

this is from 1942

 

[Mr. Mosin]

Cool. Thank you