Witness .45 acp or look what followed me home from the Gunshow

[kjeff50cal]

I was looking for a nice pistol to eat up some "spare .45 ball ammo" and I went to a friend's booth (really a whole block of tables) at the Pasadena Gun Show. This was in amoungst the Colts, Kimbers and Paras.....

Tanfoglio Witness .45 ACP Full Size

I was planning to wear it in today but my favorite indoor range had a huge CHL class and the outdoor range I usually haunt was under a very heavy rain storm. I may sneak over to the range before work Sunday "to fire for function".

 

[browningguy]

That looks good, hope you enjoy it. I've got two EAA's, a 9 and a .40 and both have been very fine pistols.

 

[kjeff50cal]

Thanks BrowningGuy, the last gunshow I attended I almost bought one in 10mm, but got something else. I was not going to make that mistake again. I wanted something in a major caliber, with a polymer frame and I like the CZ 75.

If the morning monsoon will hold off I may make a run to Bailey's.

 

[rcellis]

Nice looking pistol, and nice photo, I might add.

I've been thinking about those guns for some time. Tempting.

But I just blew my gun budget all to heck with a 24/7 compact. Now I've *got* to sell a safe queen or two. I've got one picked out, but the second is going to require -extraction- procedures. Ugh.

Anyway - congratulations and hope you enjoy it.

 

[Dgindlesperger]

nice looking gun!! would like to read a range report when you have a chance.

 

[shooter1]

kjeff50cal,
You just may have made a life altering decision! The CZ pattern guns have a way of worming their way to the top of your list of favorites. The Witness line has been one of the best values for the money available on the market. I don't own a polymer model, but I do own the fullsize wonder finsih pistols in 9mm/10mm/.45. I also have a .40 barrel to use with the 10mm upper if I so desire. This pistol is also available in 38 Super and .22LR.
If you want to change calibers by buying the complete uppers they are available from : https://shop.reedsammo.com/categoryNavigationDocument.hg?categoryId=41

The complete uppers are $195. These are good people to deal with. Enjoy your Witness!
str1

 

[shooter1]

Forgot to mention, if you have trouble finding an inexpensive holster for your Witness, the Fobus holster made for my Sig 220 fits just fine.
str1

 

[kjeff50cal]

Thank you all for your replies and support. I saw Reeds conversion uppers. The Witness rivals the AR platform with caliber interchangeabilty.... hmmm 9mm & 10mm.

 

[p85]

I have to agree with the others. I bought the 10mm, full size, wonder finish a while back and recently purchased the forty barrel for it. After 1000 rounds of 10 and about 300 of the 40, I can honestly say that you get your moneys worth from these pistols.

 

[shooter1]

I might also add that I have several 9mm pistols in various platforms. I chose the Witness in 9mm for my ESP pistol in IDPA. I ordered an adjustable sight for the 9mm to take advantage of it's awesome accuracy. I couldn't find an extended safety for it, so I added on to the stock one with JB weld and reshaped it to suit my likes. Works great! If you get the 10mm I recommend the calibration spring kit from Wolff Gun Springs to tune the gun to the 10mm loads. I had to go to the 22# recoil spring and shorten the ejector a bit to get my brass to land in the same zip code. You might say ejection was a bit brisk.
str1

 

[wally]

Magazines are the weak point of EAA pistols. Too many minor variations in the frames for good reliability -- in fact when you buy replacement factory EAA mags they come with a package insert that says:

"This product is sold as is with all faults. The entire risk as to the quality and performance of the product is with the buyer. The determination of the fitness or suitability of the product for a specific use is the responsibility of the buyer."


As one who has had even worse luck with EAA magazines than I have with Para Ordnance double stacks all I can say is be careful. I'm close to putting EAA Witness guns in the "don't buy it unless you can shoot it first to be sure it works" catagory.

If you get magazines that work in your gun there is not much to dislike about the Witness pistols other than the silver colored front sight on the "Wonder Finish" uppers.

I've four EAA Witness pistols, three polymer and one steel. Two of the polymer (9mm Compact & .45) have been fine, the other (.40S&W Compact ) is the worst jam-o-matic in my collection. The steel (10mm) the jury is still out on as the few failures may just be a break in issue. Like with Para mags, I find the factory magazine springs are usually crap.

--wally.

 

[Noxx]

look what followed me home from the Gunshow

I gotta use that line...

 

[Kelly J]

Today, 10:17 AM #11
wally
Do you reload your ammo for the 40 S&W, my reason for asking is I had a minor problem with my EAA Witness Compact in wonder finish 10mm Conversion to 40 S&W, both of the rounds were a bit of a problem until I spoke with a Tech. at Dillon and he suggested to add a small taper crimp to the brass, which I did and to measure it; it was about 1/32 of an inch from end of case to blend out of taper, after this adjustment I could dump a Mag. as fast as I could pull the Trigger with out a problem, never misfeed again, it might help you and then again it may be a bad Mag.

I got rid of that pistol not because there was anything wrong with it but I wanted the EAA Witness Elite Match it was better suited to my wants that the Compact, Crazy I know but it just fit my hand better and it is a Single Action with Adj. Sights, Still in 40 S&W I wanted the 10mm but it was not available at the time and since I had converted the Compact from 10mm to 40 S&W I didn't think it was going to be a problem getting a conversion Kit, Wrong you can get the long slide in a 10MM and get conversion Kits for 40S&W, 38 Sup., 9MM, 45 ACP but if you don't get the 10mm first the best you can do is a full Size 10 not the long slide.

But I will tell you true the Match is for the best shooting Pistol I have ever fired for the money, bar nun.

 

[wally]

Yes I reload .40S&W and I use the Lee Factory Taper Crimp Die.

Actually the gun is most reliable with my hard cast lead reloads because they are the "lightest". Basically it seems the greater the recoil the more frequent the problems. The magazine often loses control of the rounds and I get either a nose up jam or a premature slide lock. The nose dives into the feed ramp stopped after I replaced the magazine springs with Wolf extra power, but the other two problems persist. I've tried stronger and weaker recoil springs to no avail.

The 10mm failures have been nose dives, I've replaced the springs in those mags but haven't had a chance to see if its cured or not. I picked up a spacer to try the 10mm mags in the compact .40S&W. Its about my last hope to salvage the gun.

The longer slides will reduce recoil and could help with my problem, but I doubt I'll throw more good money after bad (I tried a few extra mags which is how I know about the EAA disclaimer).

--wally.

 

[shooter1]

I have bought a total of 18 mags from:https://shop.reedsammo.com/categoryNavigationDocument.hg?categoryId=57
I did replace the springs in the 10mm mags with Wolff extra power springs, and went to a 20# recoil springs. No feed problems since. I only had occasional problems before the spring changes and zero since. No problems with any of the others.
str1

 

[wally]

Reed's is where I got my EAA mags that didn't come with the gun except for the 9mm compact for which I glued spacers onto the back of the $10 13-round Baby Eagle mags from CDNN, they've worked great as has the 10 rounder that came with it (also tried the .40 version of these but was no help). I use the Mec-Gar Witness mags for the .45.

--wally.

 

[Grayrider]

KJeff,

Just to be sure you know, the conversion kits for the steel guns DO NOT fit the polymer guns. I don't know if Ron has kits for the polymer guns or not.

John

 

[kjeff50cal]

Note taken thanks

 

[wally]

Typical problems with my EAA Witness-P .40S&W Compact.

The 10mm mags with the bottom spacer didn't solve my problem (this mag has the Wolff extra power spring). No photos of the premature slide lock which is the most frequent issue since it looks like a perfectly normal slide lock situation except there still are rounds in the magazine. Can chamber with either the lever or "slingshot". I've taken enough material off the slide lock that now it doesn't lock back reliably on the last shot but will almost never empty a mag without a premature lock back .

Here are photos of the magazine losing control of the rounds and the resulting jams. Usually happens with three or fewer round left in the mag. These are the compact .40S&W upper on the full sized Witness-P .45 frame. I was permuting things to see if the frame had an influence on the premature slide lock issue (didn't, still had the problem).

Putting the .45 upper on the compact Witness-P frame I shot 50 rounds using the bottom spacer on the Meg-Gar .45 mags withoug problems. Looks like I just got a lemon in EAA .40S&W Witness-P Compact. I've tried the heavier and lighter recoil springs from Wolff and still no joy.

--wally.

 

[shooter1]

Wally,
That's a stumper for sure! Don't know how the CS is at EAA, but it might be time to find out. Do you think there could possibly be burrs inside the magazine tube causing the mag springs to hang or bind? Or plastic flashing on the followers draging? Just shooting in the dark. Hope you get satisfaction with the thing soon!
str1

 

[wally]

Customer service at EAA is generally regarded as about the worst in the industry.

Can't feel any burrs inside the mags. I've had this problem with Para mags so I'll try polishing the insides of the mags eventually although I could feel the roughness in the Para mags and eventually succeeded in getting them to work. I did polish off some molding flash from the followers but it didn't help.

This 15 round mag worked fine in my steel frame Witness 10mm. I tried the .40 upper on the 10mm lower (the steel frame slides are cut longer at the rear to match the "beavertail" but the firing pin retainer ends up in the same place) and had some nose up jams in short order. I think there is just too much space in the mag for the shorter .40 rounds to stay put under recoil.

I did order a new slide lock lever and its retaining spring. If I could solve the premature slide lock issue it'd be OK as a range gun with my lead bullet reloads.

It occasionally ejects loaded rounds during shooting, the second photo shows one that didn't quite make it out. This is rare, the first photo shows the common failure (several per box of 50) with full power loads, the premature slide lock is just about every magazine

I contacted Reed's, they do not have conversion kits for the Witness-P guns.

It's not completely worthless, it can always serve as a bad example!

I tried one of the Wolff Para "custom fit" springs (with some fitting top and bottom) in the 15 round mag and a Wolff 11lb extra power 1911 spring in the 10 round mag (I had extras of both on hand). Seems stronger loading the first round, I'll see if it helps next time out after the replacement slide lock lever comes in.

My final test will be to try the 10mm barrel in the .40 slide, it hangs over the front by about 1" but otherwise seems a good fit. This will be my last gasp (using downloaded to .40 S&W level 10mm reloads).

--wally.

 

[shooter1]

Wally,
Sounds like you have some serious time invested in trying to make the .40 work. I'm still thinking the follower or spring almost has to be binding in the mag tube somehow. I can't imagine how the mag spring could lose tension otherwise,------------unless something is going on at the bottom of the slide during cycling to somehow upset the top round in the magazine. I hope you will keep us posted as to if and when you resolve this problem. Wish you the best, and soon! Apparently the polymer frames are a different animal. Didn't know the conversion uppers from Reed's wouldn't work with them. Wonder why?
str1

 

[wally]

I believe the conversions for the steel frame would work on the polymer guns (I put the upper from my polymer onto my steel and it worked, but didn't solve the issues) but they will look like crap as the slides are a bit (1/8" or more) different at the back to match the frame contours.

I'm sure its a magazine issue but I think its a magazine design issue -- its too long for .40S&W rounds. I think they got away with it in 9mm because of the lower recoil impulse.

I enjoy tinkering, the gun only cost me $240 when CDNN was closing them out. Been happy with the 9mm and .45 Witness-P I'd gotten from CDNN earlier.

--wally.

 

[mpmarty]

Interesting, MecGar makes the magazines for Tanfoglio and I have a full size 10mm all steel. I have six magazines purchased at different times from EAA and they all have worked perfectly. I've got over five thousand rounds through this gun, mixed WW 175gr silvertips, Blazer, Win White Box, and my 155 and 180 grain cast reloads. Never had a misfire, failure to eject, stovepipe, or any other problem of any kind with any ammo. It even runs with .40 S&W ammo but I only tried a couple of magazines of that as I don't want to cause any problems. I like this ten so much I just ordered an Elite Match in .40 and EAA is including a 4.75" 10mm barrel for it. They say the 40 and 10mm mags are the same.

 

[wally]

The .40 and 10mm are the same mags, problem is my gun is the Witness-P Compact .40 and that is the problem as the mag looses control of the rounds causing feed failures since the .40 is too short for the mag body. The mag I tried in the full sized .45ACP frame (shown in the photo) worked fine in my steel frame 10mm.

Go back and read my first post where I quote EAA's disclaimer. I'm sure they are aware of the problems and choose to ignore them.

I've three Witness-P guns, two are good (9mm Compact & .45ACP Full Size), one is a pure lemon (.40S&W) plain and simple. Jury's still out on the 10mm steel frame as I haven't shot it enough to know if it will be reliable or not. Had a few issues initially but they seemed to not repeat with a little more shooting. I didn't have to run thru much ammo to get the two failure photos.

I wouldn't be surprised if the full sized .40 upper worked on my compact frame -- timing changes quite a bit with the heavier slide/barrel combination.

--wally.


Edit: EAA magazine package insert disclaimer: "This product is sold as is with all faults. The entire risk as to the quality and performance of the product is with the buyer. The determination of the fitness or suitability of the product for a specific use is the responsibility of the buyer."