Witness protection 870 - legally SBS or not?

[RayTheGreat]

Hello everybody,

I'm interested in potentially picking up an old Remington 870 somewhere down the road and sending it off to be converted into a "witness protection" piece, with the stock carved off into a pistol grip and the barrel cut down. Naturally this would just be for enjoying myself at the range. Here's a picture of what the finish product would look like.



Now, i would be having the gunsmith cutting down the stock as well as the barrel. Bearing this in mind, would the gun need to be registered as an SBS? If so, why? What would make it different from, say, a Draco AK pistol, which also has a pistol grip and a handguard?
Thanks everyone in advance, I just want to be safe.
-Love from Ray

 

[KansasSasquatch]

Any shotgun with less than 18" of barrel is an SBS, if it was manufactured with a shoulder stock. If the overall length, including barrel(s) is less than 26" and it was manufactured with only a pistol grip, I believe it becomes an Any Other Weapon (AOW) considered a smooth bore pistol. A Draco AK pistol doesn't have to be registered and taxed as an SBR because it's a Draco AK PISTOL. Put a vertical foregrip on it and it becomes an SBR.

There are companies that produce shotguns like you're wanting. I don't know how reputable any of these companies are but here's a few links:

http://paladinarmory.com/newpage3.htm
http://serbu.com/supershorty.html
http://www.impactguns.com/aow.aspx

 

[TTv2]

Mossberg makes a model of the 500 with a 14 inch barrel and pistol grip, but it's over 26 inches OAL. It's legal to sell without tax stamp because it is neither an AOW or SBS, it is just a firearm.

Black Aces also makes a magazine fed pump shotgun with a folding brace that also evades the AOW/SBS category.

Bottom line, as long as the gun never had a buttstock attached to it and is over 26" no need to worry about the NFA.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Short answer:

If made from
_ a standard shotgun that was made and sold originally as a long gun
and
_ the overall length of the finished gun is less than 26 inches or the barrel is less than 18 inches
then
it is a Short Barrel Shotgun SBS under the law and "all NFA rules apply".

As others have pointed out, it is different from a Draco AK pistol because the Draco was made and sold as a pistol subject to handgun and concealable weapons laws at the federal and state levels.

The witness protection replica would be a concealable weapon made from a long gun that was originally made and sold subject to long gun (rifle and shotgun) laws which in most cases are less restrictive than handgun laws.

Add about 4" to the barrel length shown in the photo, you would still have a legal "long gun" shotgun (over 26" with barrel over 18") under federal law and most state laws.

(Caveat: legal advice over the internet is worth every penny you pay for it.)

Teal Deer Version (TL;DR)

Factories can make an "other firearm" such as a pistol grip shotgun with minimum 26" overall but barrel shorter than 18" since it is sold by a licensed dealer subject to federal and state law on concealable weapons.

If you make a pistol grip shotgun from a long gun yourself, it is subject to NFA regulations on Short Barrel Shotgun SBS. Shorter than minimum 26" overall and minimum 18" barrel makes it an SBS and requires a completed and approved Form I.

One of the original intents of Congress in passing the NFA was to prevent people from circumventing federal or state handgun laws by making concealable weapons out of long guns.

An AR or AK pistol is made and sold subject to federal and state handgun laws so it is not the same as making a replica of the witness protection shotgun oneself.

"Other firearm" is an interesting offspring out of the 1968 GCA interacting with the 1934 NFA under jurisdiction of the ATF.

Section B Box 18 on the 4473 (must be completed by transferor (seller)):
18. Type of firearm(s) to be transferred (check or mark all that apply):
[ ] Handgun
[ ] Long Gun (rifles or shotguns)
[ ] Other Firearm (Frame, Receiver, etc. See Instructions for Question 18.)

The instructions mention:

"Types of firearms include: pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, receiver, frame and other firearms that are not either handguns or long guns (rifles or shotguns) ...."

"Other Firearms" include "firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms".

There is an 18 year age limit on purchase of long gun (rifle or shotgun designed to be fired from the shoulder).
There is a 21 year age limit on purchase of
o handgun (pistol or revolver),
o receiver or frame (which can be used to legally make a handgun or long gun),
o pistol grip only shotguns
o NFA firearms.

 

[RayTheGreat]

Thanks a ton everybody, my eyes are opened!
-love from Ray

 

[dogtown tom]

kansassasquatch .... A draco ak pistol doesn't have to be registered and taxed as an sbr because it's a draco ak pistol. put a vertical foregrip on it and it becomes an sbr.

AOW

 

[RayTheGreat]

These laws are a trifle confusing to a simpleton like me and kinda nonsensical if I may say so. Not that I'm whining, I find it a bit amusing to be honest. I don't mind getting a $200 tax stamp if it comes down to that. Thanks a ton everybody for clarifying and filling me in on the details! it's been a fascinating and invaluable experience.
Thanks again
-love from Ray

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Just curious, but are you a fan of "The Book of Eli"?

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Book_of_Eli,_The#Remington_870_.22Witness_Protection.22

Me, I would like a (lowercase) 1892 mare's leg reworked to replicate Zoe's sidearm in the TV series Firefly-- would be totally impractical, but would "just be for enjoying myself at the range" as a fan.

 

[Quiet]

Title 1 Shotgun and Title 1 Other and Title 2 AOW (Any Other Weapon) and Title 2 SBS (Short Barrel Shotgun)...

Factory made firearm that shoots shotgun shells with a smoothbore barrel of greater than 18" and an overall length of greater than 26" and a shoulder stock installed = Title 1 Shotgun
^If the barrel length is reduced to less than 18" and/or the overall length is reduced to less than 26", then the Title 1 Shotgun becomes a Title 2 SBS.

Factory made firearm that shoots shotgun shells with a smoothbore barrel of greater than 18" and an overall length of greater than 26" and no shoulder stock installed = Title 1 Other
^If the barrel length is reduced to less than 18" and the overall length is reduced to less than 26" and no shoulder stock is installed, then the Title 1 Other becomes a Title 2 AOW.
^If the barrel length is reduced to less than 18" and the overall length is reduced to less than 26" and a shoulder stock is installed, then the Title 1 Other becomes a Title 2 SBS.

Factory made firearm that shoots shotgun shells with a smoothbore barrel of less than 18" and an overall length of greater than 26" and no shoulder stock installed = Title 1 Other
^If the overall length is reduced to less than 26" and no shoulder stock is installed, then the Title 1 Other becomes a Title 2 AOW.
^If the overall length is reduced to less than 26" and a shoulder stock is installed, then the Title 1 Other becomes a Title 2 SBS.

Factory made firearm that shoots shotgun shells with a smoothbore barrel of less than 18" and an overall length of less than 26" and no shoulder stock installed = Title 2 AOW
^If a shoulder stock is attached, then Title 2 AOW becomes a Title 2 SBS.

Factory made firearm that shoots shotgun shells with a smooth barrel of less than 18" and an overall length of greater than 26" and a shoulder stock installed = Title 2 SBS

 

[eastbank]

i made a home defence shotgun by taking a very used rem 1100 and adding all new parts that were needed to bring it up to new speck,s. shortening the stock and adding weight to it and putting a 18" barrel on it, total lenth is 26". its very handy and with lowbrass 1-1/8 oz #2(reloads) shot the recoil is bearable. eastbank.

 

[RayTheGreat]

Carl, I actually haven't seen that movie but noticed the picture is from it! Is the film any good? I have noticed similar 870's in other movies, however. I think it's overall a cool gun though very impractical.
Thanks again everybody for clarifying the legal details! It has been a great help.
Love from Ray

 

[DanLee]

Hello everybody,

I'm interested in potentially picking up an old Remington 870 somewhere down the road and sending it off to be converted into a "witness protection" piece, with the stock carved off into a pistol grip and the barrel cut down. Naturally this would just be for enjoying myself at the range. Here's a picture of what the finish product would look like.



Now, i would be having the gunsmith cutting down the stock as well as the barrel. Bearing this in mind, would the gun need to be registered as an SBS? If so, why? What would make it different from, say, a Draco AK pistol, which also has a pistol grip and a handguard?
Thanks everyone in advance, I just want to be safe.
-Love from Ray

You may enjoy it at the range, but I doubt for long. I've shot these truncated weapons and they aren't a lot of fun after the first few shots. I guess it will depend on your pain tolerance.

 

[Frostbite]

Should such a weapon be shot single-handedly in proper use?

 

[strambo]

Carl, I actually haven't seen that movie but noticed the picture is from it! Is the film any good? I have noticed similar 870's in other movies, however. I think it's overall a cool gun though very impractical.
Thanks again everybody for clarifying the legal details! It has been a great help.
Love from Ray

The movie is definitely worth watching for sure, I have it on blue ray and I don't own many movies (most aren't worth watching multiple times).

 

[entropy]

Should such a weapon be shot single-handedly in proper use?

Not if you value that wrist.

 

[RayTheGreat]

Point taken, DanLee! However, to me some things are cool enough to warrant feeling a little (or a lot) of pain.

Except when shooting blanks, I'd suspect that shooting single-handed would be dangerous for you and others around you. I'd highly advise hand-guard use from what I know!

Thanks Strambo, I'll take note to watch it sometimes. I've been looking for a good film to watch!

Thanks everybody for your great help!
love from Ray

 

[lemaymiami]

I ran across a few poppers that looked like the one pictured back when I was working the street all those years ago... Mostly, "witness protection" would be the last thing that would occur to me if I came across one. Usually the user was long gone in an effort to stay out of jail. Essentially a weapon in that configuration is only good for close quarters intimidation (robbery) or simple up close killing. If the user ever came up against someone that knew close quarters tactics he (or she) would come up short in more ways than one...

Even properly done, a pistol grip shotgun with a very short barrel isn't a very useful defensive weapon (unless every assailant were nice enough to stand really close....).

 

[RayTheGreat]

I absolutely agree with you, lemaymiami. I'm only interested in one for having (occasional) fun at the range. Because of having to get an NFA stamp I'll likely just keep the 870 stock. I'm not in a rush!
Thanks again everyone.
love from Ray

 

[kBob]

Such guns have been used by Law Enforcement Agencies for Witness Protection.

Supposedly some US Marshals used them and they called them "Whippets" cause they could be carried concealed and when you need one, you "Whip It" out.

Paladin has been making them a while. Having gone to high school with him, once having asked one of his sisters to marry me, and having helped him move his business from New Hampshire to Florida, I must recuse myself from passing judgment on him business wise.

He is the first person I would go to for this sort of work though.

-kBob