Woman shoots man found under her bed

[cobrian45]

I think the mistake that some people make is interlacing the definition of what burglary is and justified use of deadly force. They can be mutually exclusive. The definition of burglary in this case has the wording "with consent". Great, but the case (if any) will not be about whether burglary was taking place or not. It will be about justifiable use of deadly force.

Mekender was gracious enough to provide that in the research as well.

SECTION 16-11-440. Presumption of reasonable fear of imminent peril when using deadly force against another unlawfully entering residence, occupied vehicle or place of business.

(A) A person is presumed to have a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to himself or another person when using deadly force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury to another person if the person:

(1) against whom the deadly force is used is in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or has unlawfully and forcibly entered a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if he removes or is attempting to remove another person against his will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

(2) who uses deadly force knows or has reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act is occurring or has occurred.

This, under this section has all the pieces of a justified shoot under the law. Unlawful entry of a dwelling and the shooter believes that forcible entry has occurred.

 

[karz10]

ummmm hello

Speaking legally, not ethically, I think there would have to be very severe extenuating circumstances for this woman to face any charges, because SC has a pretty cut and dry castle doctrine...

http://www.sled.sc.gov/ProtectionOfPeople.aspx?MenuID=CWP

There is more to this, I have it in my CWP class stuff, but too lazy to get it right now... As I recall, anyone trying to gain entry to your car, trying to get you out of your car, getting into your home, in your home, or on your property (within reasonable distance of your residence, not necessarily out on the back forty) is present illegally and/or not complying with you can be shot in self defense.

I'm the first to say that I, like everyone else, has my own criteria and may vary by situation to situation, where I would feel necessary to shoot in self defense, and there could be a situation where I would not feel threatened or compelled to shoot someone in the house, and would choose another course of action, but from what I've read on the law here, the victim of attempted attack in your vehicle, or having any intruder in your home, in SC, the victim here has significant legal protection, unless it can be somehow proven that the alleged victim had some alterior motive, like they lure someone into their home so they can shoot them or something like that, but if it's any way a self defense thing, I think there's a lot of protection in your own home here...

Neighboring NC does not have a so called castle doctrine, while still allowing for self defense, and in some cases not requiring the duty to retreat, living here on the border of the two states, the general consensus of firearms enthusiasts and CWP instructors that I know, seem to think the SC law in this case protects the gun owner a little more, comparatively...

Regards,

Karz

 

[mekender]

As I recall, anyone trying to gain entry to your car, trying to get you out of your car, getting into your home, in your home, or on your property (within reasonable distance of your residence, not necessarily out on the back forty) is present illegally and/or not complying with you can be shot in self defense.

burglary of a conveyance (while you arent in the vehicle) and trespassing on property are not usually justifiable reasons... now, if there is a threat of violence during those incidents, then sure, a case can be made for physical threat during the commission of a crime... this is pretty much what Joe Horn is arguing down in TX, that the 2 dead guys trespassed onto his property while committing a crime and threatened his safety... but i would be really hesitant of making a shoot outside of my home...

 

[kd7nqb]

Sounds like a good shoot to me. I wish I had more details, it brings up an interesting over penetration scenario, we always think about over penetration as far as walls but floors should be considered too. I know very little about construction, which is normally more rigid, walls or floors?

 

[mekender]

floors usually have more wood in them, plus can have pipes and metal braces... but on average, 2nd story floors are usually plywood with beams(2x4 or 2x6 underneath... then a bottom layer of drywall that forms the ceiling for the lower level...

that would offer minimal protection against FMJ pistol rounds and little to no protection against rifle rounds...

all said, in your average house, there are very few things that are good at stopping bullets... bathtubs, stoves, refrigerators, dishwashers, water heaters and possibly mattresses are about the only things... wood furniture can stop rounds, but it would be very unreliable... walls and floors are not going to stop rounds unless they are very heavy plaster or masonry

 

[Brenainn]

Coming from a girl, this is my veiw on it...

Obviously, being someones neighbor doesn't give someone ANY rights to unknowingly enter someone's home. It shouldn't give them any rights what-so-ever afterwards either...

There is no telling what the dude was planning, and what personal belongings he went through before she got home. It's creepy to me. I would have shot to prevent possible harm to myself. For all I could have know, he could have been packing too.

At least now, (if she gets off) the dude will know that she won't hesitate to actually shoot him. So he may not reconsider coming back later. Where as if she had just told him to "slowly come out" and held him until the cops came (which would have been to dangerous IMO) he may have thought of her as too soft to shoot him, and therefore an easier target if he were to come back.

I just keep thinking of the "come back" part and would be thinking that right before I shot him!

 

[atblis]

I hope so

Authorities say a woman coming home from work shot and killed an intruder she found under her bed.

I don't think he'll be doing whatever it was he was doing ever again. Most likely that is a good thing.

Unfortunately, there is the possibility that he did not intend harm. I know people who play pranks like that. There's a possibility this isn't a bad shoot, but not really a good shoot either.

 

[mljdeckard]

Under Utah law, as far as I understand it, this man,

A: Entered the home either by violence or by stealth (He snuck into her house when she wasn't home,)

B: With the intent to commit a felony (He hid under her bed, when he could have hidden in the shower or a closet or jumped out the window. His being under her BED indicates a likelihood to commit harm to her.)

If I were a defense attorney, I think I could sell this one to a jury. If I were a prosecutor, I wouldn't want to try to push a jury the other way. HE put HER in the situation of trying to determine what his intent was by being where he shouldn't have been. This is HIS fault, NOT hers. I mean really, what could his explanation have been, "She borrowed my screwdriver last week, and I was just looking for it under her bed."?

 

[Brenainn]

Quote:
Authorities say a woman coming home from work shot and killed an intruder she found under her bed.
I don't think he'll be doing whatever it was he was doing ever again. Most likely that is a good thing.

Unfortunately, there is the possibility that he did not intend harm. I know people who play pranks like that. There's a possibility this isn't a bad shoot, but not really a good shoot either.

Oh... my bad. But still...

 

[.cheese.]

I don't know why...... but while I can't quite come to the conclusion that the lady did anything wrong.... I still feel bad for the guy.

I think it's that I feel bad he was so dumb that his stupidity got him killed.

I don't know. It's kind of sad though. Maybe I'm just more easily "gotten to" by this stuff. I usually feel bad for the criminal who died.... just from the sheer fact that had things gone different in that person's life, they could still be alive and maybe even a productive member of society.

It doesn't change the fact that if I am presented with a situation where it is needed, I will not hesitate to shoot to defend my life..... but it's still sad.

 

[cobrian45]

After initially discussing this from a dry and clinical legal standpoint, I must now offer my honest opinion on the issue. If my wife came home to that situation, my instructions would be to shoot until it goes click. I don't want to know, nor do I care, what his intentions are. He is in the home of another person without consent (from what I know of the story) and laying in wait. Period. I'd much rather see what occurred in this situation than this woman (or my wife in the same situation) find out the hard way the meaning of his true intent. I don't think anyone here would argue with that if you are honest with yourself. "We'll handle the DA, honey, and I'll destroy his reputation if he tries to prosecute this one." How are you going to spin a woman in her home defending herself from an intruder, regardless of where he lives? Seriously.

 

[-terry]

I agree with Cheese. It would be heartbreaking to take another life, even if required.

 

[Avenger29]

Unfortunately, there is the possibility that he did not intend harm. I know people who play pranks like that. There's a possibility this isn't a bad shoot, but not really a good shoot either.

And people who try to play stupid pranks like that are competing for the Darwin Award.

There was a girl killed in GA a couple of years ago because some intruders cut a hole in her flooring and gained access, then killed her. I think they also raped her.

If I came home, particuarly if I lived alone, and there is somebody in the house, especially hiding under the bed or in a closet, they are getting shot PRONTO. It doesn't matter whether they are a neighbor or someone I know. Neighbors, family members, and friends have all turned on people they know and murdered them before.

Down here, you damn well get in contact with a person BEFORE you pay a visit to their dwelling. You don't enter when they are not home, either. And you don't trespess on property playing pranks, either. Not everyone identifies targets as well as we do, either.

 

[brigadier]

I don't know about the entire state, but in Charleston, entering someones house uninvited is automatic grounds for deadly force.

 

[LightningJoe]

Regardless of the guy's hypothetical motives, from the point of view of the woman coming home and encountering the guy, what's the difference between his actions and those of an attacker who would hold her prisoner for 12 hours, rape her repeatedly, and then strangle her? I would say none. It's not her obligation to give him the chance to come up with an explanation of why he's under her bed. The fact that he's there initiates a fight. She must fight back with everything she has.

 

[xpun8]

Unfortunately, there is the possibility that he did not intend harm. I know people who play pranks like that. There's a possibility this isn't a bad shoot, but not really a good shoot either.

People that know someone well enough to pull a prank should/would know how the prankee will react. As a prankster there isn't a snowballs chance Hades I'd ever perform anything remotely close to this. I witnessed a prankster just about have his neck snapped when he hid behind a tree and surprised the wrong person. Instead of his wife it was our friend who is capable of killing you with a pen. Pranks that involve surprising people with your presence is just a bad idea. However, short sheeting, wrapping everything in bosses office in saran wrap or shoe polish on ear piece of phone are all acceptable, as long as you are willing to receive the consequences.

 

[Ultrachimp]

While I personally would have tried leaving and calling the cops (at least in principle), I wasn't there.

 

[saspic]

There is a lot of speculation in this thread. Fact is, if you weren't there, you don't really know what happened.
If he was a muscle-bound guy with a black ski mask and knife screaming threats, it sounds like a good shoot.
If he was a mentally challenged young man crying for his mommy and heading away from her and towards an open window, it clouds the issue.
The truth is probably somewhere in between. As Lightning Joe correctly gathers, from the lady's point of view, shooting was most likely the reasonable thing to do for her safety, and I won't judge her. But as much fun as these what-if scenarios are, you should be cautious about making blanket statements, e.g. "That guy would definitely have been dead in my house." That's the kind of thing that got Joe Horn in hot water.
Remember, carry a big stick and speak softly.

 

[inkhead]

It really boils down to ... she was a women and it was under her bed. A guy would probably get in quite a bit more trouble.

 

[brigadier]

I agree with a cease-fire upon surrender. Unfortunately, we'll never know if he ever actually did.

 

[Bubbles]

The article lacks important details.

Was the perp armed or not?

Did the perp have anything on him that would show his intentions (e.g. duct tape, handcuffs, ski mask, etc)?

Did the perp say anything as he was coming out from under the bed? "Please don't shoot me" versus "I'm going to ********" makes a difference.

How big was the man versus the woman (disparity of force)?

Is there a "history" between the two? Did they ever date, or were they barely acquainted? Also, some neighbors get along fine, others butt heads against the fenceline.

The article doesn't say.

 

[HKUSP45C]

That's the kind of thing that got Joe Horn in hot water.

Last I checked, Joe Horn wasn't in any hot water. He's just being crucified in the court of public opinion.

 

[JWarren]

Speaking legally, not ethically

The very fact that we are debating this speaks volumes for where our society has gone.

A guy under the women's bed in her house?????

Jesus Tapdancing Christ! When did we start LOOKING for reasons to justify EVERYTHING criminals do.

Let's use our brains for a second:


A guy is in your house while no one is home. OK.

He hears someone come in. Instead of calling out and quickly making you aware of his prescence and offering an explaination, he chooses to hide under YOUR BED.

Is is FAR more likely that he got lost and wandered into your bedroom or is it FAR more likely that he was planning on raping and killing you?

Does anyone besides me watch the news???


I've gone into my parents house when they were not home plenty of times. I've unlocked their front door and walked in when they WERE home, but in the back of the house and couldn't hear me. Every time it occured to me that I needed to be very careful that I don't get shot. When I open the door, I peek my head in and yell loudly "Mom-- Dad, its John... Where are you?" They answer and I come in. There is NO way I would walk in and surprise them. I damn sure wouldn't hide under the bed.


Has anyone been in a situation where they have seen a predator attempt a rape? I prevented the rape of my sister in my front lawn when I was 15 years old. Two guys on bikes threw her down at our rural mailbox and started tearing her clothes off. Following the logic of some, I should have concluded that they were trying to get a mustard stain off her blouse and thanked them for their concern. I guess I really shouldn't have pulled that gun.

In 2000, someone tried to abduct my mother while she was jogging. When she passed he turned a white cargo van into a private road. He opened the back of the van and it was completely open inside. It had no windows and had out-of-state plates. The guy was clean cut wearing a golf shirt and slacks. He took out of the back of the van a coil of rope and a "billy club" and placed them against his rear tire.

For about 20 minutes, he kept looking up the road where my mother had gone. He walked behind the van and urinated on the side of the road. After about 20 minutes, he realized that he must have lost my mother. Fortunately, she had the presence of mine to go hide in the woods and watch the man. After a bit, he calmly packed up his things, got back on the highway, and drove off. You think he was waiting around to ask directions???



People... use your common sense. The guy hiding under your bed is NOT there by some odd coincidence. He didn't come in looking for a kitten. He didn't trip on a slipper and fall where he rolled under your bed. He didn't just forget to announce his presence.

No... the man is a monster who was planning on unimaginable evil. STOP making excuses for him!

If the guy gets shot, there is not telling how many people that may have been saved from him. After the event with my mother mentioned above, I called the FBI. An agent told me that there were AT LEAST 75 serial killers operating in the USA that are completely off the radar. Think about that for a minute... If ONE of those slipped up and got himself shot, how many people would be spared rape, torture, and death at the hands of a monster?


I can't believe we are discussing the go or no-go of this. I can't believe there would be a question of the ethics of this.

Some people mentally create such stringent criteria for their go or no-go that it is beyond the realm of reality. Should the woman wait until the man exits from underneath the bed and begins to remove her clothes before it is justified? Or should that even be justified? After all, he may JUST want to rape her, but not kill her. Perhaps rape isn't justifiable since there is potentially the possibility that it would not be "life-threatening." Maybe she should just give him what he wants and he will go away....


Do we really believe that?



-- John

 

[TallPine]

There really are monsters under the bed

 

[.38 Special]

There is a lot of speculation in this thread. Fact is, if you weren't there, you don't really know what happened.
If he was a muscle-bound guy with a black ski mask and knife screaming threats, it sounds like a good shoot.
If he was a mentally challenged young man crying for his mommy and heading away from her and towards an open window, it clouds the issue.
The truth is probably somewhere in between. As Lightning Joe correctly gathers, from the lady's point of view, shooting was most likely the reasonable thing to do for her safety, and I won't judge her. But as much fun as these what-if scenarios are, you should be cautious about making blanket statements, e.g. "That guy would definitely have been dead in my house." That's the kind of thing that got Joe Horn in hot water.
Remember, carry a big stick and speak softly.

Beat me to it.

I'll just add that the chest-thumping "I'd have unloaded into him, reloaded and done it again, and then beaten his dog to teach all criminals a lesson!" posts are juvenile, at best.