Wondering what I got
- Thread starter hapidogbreath
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jonnyc
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Nice WWI Luger, but the refinish and "X" above the 1918 identify it as a "Russian Refurb". As such, you should be able to find the import marks. In that state, it should be a really good shooter, worth about $800-900. More pics could narrow down the ID and value.
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hapidogbreath
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Walt Sherrill
Member
Many of the Soviet-captured guns (many of them used by the East German police after WWII) had mismatched parts.
Luger (P-08) parts were serialized to keep them together when being worked on in an arsenal. While the Lugers were made in factories, they all had some hand-fit parts, which accounted for their higher production costs; those higher costs led to the later development of the Walther P-38 which replaced them during WWII.
None of the three or four Soviet- captures I saw and handled had the "X" cited above, but several had mismatched side plates and one or two had other mismatched parts. The "capture" I owned had all-matching parts except for the side plate . All of these guns were refinished -- apparently dropped into a vat after some disassembly -- but looked a little better than the finish in the photo. It's unusual to see a 1918 Luger among the Soviet-captured guns.
I once owned a WWII P-08 "bring back" gun, bought from a friend of the family (who was the one who brought it back from WWII). It had a holster, take-down tool and one matching magazine.
Parts are still available and they can be great shooters.The one I shot regularly was a real tack-driver. I later traded it for a ANIB pre-B CZ-75.
If it was my P-08, I'd let a dealer who is familiar with Lugers look at it, and confirm that it is a Soviet captured Luger. If it is NOT a "capture", I'd think about contacting SIMPSON's, a firm that specializes in Lugers. Here's a link: https://www.simpsonltd.com/pages/luger-appraisal
Collectible Lugers are a real crap-shoot, and while some can be VERY valuable, there are a lot of them that have been doctored or enhanced to make them seem to be something they aren't. That doesn't sound like the case with this one, but that explains why I later decided to buy only a "shooter" when I get one, and not worry about collectability.
Luger (P-08) parts were serialized to keep them together when being worked on in an arsenal. While the Lugers were made in factories, they all had some hand-fit parts, which accounted for their higher production costs; those higher costs led to the later development of the Walther P-38 which replaced them during WWII.
None of the three or four Soviet- captures I saw and handled had the "X" cited above, but several had mismatched side plates and one or two had other mismatched parts. The "capture" I owned had all-matching parts except for the side plate . All of these guns were refinished -- apparently dropped into a vat after some disassembly -- but looked a little better than the finish in the photo. It's unusual to see a 1918 Luger among the Soviet-captured guns.
I once owned a WWII P-08 "bring back" gun, bought from a friend of the family (who was the one who brought it back from WWII). It had a holster, take-down tool and one matching magazine.
Parts are still available and they can be great shooters.The one I shot regularly was a real tack-driver. I later traded it for a ANIB pre-B CZ-75.
If it was my P-08, I'd let a dealer who is familiar with Lugers look at it, and confirm that it is a Soviet captured Luger. If it is NOT a "capture", I'd think about contacting SIMPSON's, a firm that specializes in Lugers. Here's a link: https://www.simpsonltd.com/pages/luger-appraisal
Collectible Lugers are a real crap-shoot, and while some can be VERY valuable, there are a lot of them that have been doctored or enhanced to make them seem to be something they aren't. That doesn't sound like the case with this one, but that explains why I later decided to buy only a "shooter" when I get one, and not worry about collectability.
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hapidogbreath
Member
Thanks for the info
jonnyc
Member
However, nobody would take a matching 1918 Luger and "doctor" it into a Russian "Capture" Luger. Try googling for RC Lugers and you'll learn alot about yours.
FL-NC
Member
Interesting.
Walt Sherrill
Member
jonnyc said:
First, we don't know FOR SURE that the gun in the photo above is a Soviet (not Russian) Capture; it may well be, but the "X" that one responder mentioned above as making it a "captured" gun was not something I've seen in several other Soviet captures -- at least NOT where it was shown in that photo. I think my mine might have had a "x" on the side plate in front of the the mismatched serial number. (A number of my shooting buddies also got their hands on Soviet Captured Lugers through the range/dealer where we shot and theirs were like mine with remarked/mismatched side plates.) Where the re-arsenaling was done may have dictated how the "captured" guns were marked.
We also don't know that the gun in question is all matching. The original poster did NOT disassemble it, but said it seemed to be all-matching. The marks shown in a later message are Waffenamt I'm somewhat familiar with WWII lugers, and if the gun shown is earlier, most of the following may still be true. For most parts only the last two digits are marked. Serial numbers are found on at least the following parts, but some variants may have marks in different places:
- Front of the frame
- Bottom of the barrel near the frame
- Side plate
- Extractor
- Middle toggle link
- Rear toggle link
- Toggle pin
- Magazine(s) -- apparently two mags with matching serial numbers GREATLY add to the value of the gun for a collector -- it's very rare.
- Trigger
- Firing pin
- breech block
- Safety lever
- Safety bar
- Hold open piece
I was talking about guns that looked very valuable, but weren't because they had been "improved" by folks hoping to make money from buyers who didn't know what they were buying. I learned quickly that there was more to know about Lugers than I was ever likely to know or understand, and sold and traded mine away. I did enjoy my "captured" Luger for a couple of years. (The barrel was badly corroded near the chamber, but did NOT affect accuracy, which was stellar!)
Earlier I said that my Soviet Capture was all-matching except for the side plate, but I never checked (or knew to check) the firing pin or breech block -- so it may have been mismatched on three parts. (But since it was poorly reblued, it didn't seem important.)
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hapidogbreath
Member
Thank you Walt. The information you have given me is great. Guess I'm breaking down a Luger...
Popoff
Member
Hapidogbreath, congrats on your Luger. For disassembly, best to use a Luger takedown tool, or “loading tool” from Sarco for $8.45. The tool has a flat-head screwdriver on one end that fits the grip screws and the rear of the breechblock, and a hook or spade on the other that gives your thumb leverage to pull down the magazine follower and simply drop the cartridges in. The hole in the middle fits around and under the follower button on the magazine. Very handy and a good way to avoid damage to the gun and wear and tear on your thumb. If you get a Luger holster you’ll find there is a pocket sewn in for the tool. BTW, a “genuine” loading tool may have the serial number or a portion of it such as the last two numbers from the gun it was issued with, and an inspector’s mark. I use quotes because these are the easiest things to fake (phony Nazi acceptance stamps, etc.) and can be found for sale for many hundreds of dollars on the auction sites.
To disassemble your Luger, the correct way (in the old German manuals) is to remove the magazine, clear the chamber and make safe, then hold the gun in one hand just like a Glock, and pull the action with the arched fingers against the thumb hooked around the grip. Then follow the sequence I describe below in MY way to do it. I just place a towel on the bench or table to act as a cushion. Put the muzzle on the towel and put some weight on the gun or bear down enough to open the action just a bit, then with your other hand turn the takedown lever (above the trigger on the left side) down until it is hanging vertical to the gun (at right angles to the frame rails). That will unlock the sideplate so take it off the gun (pull it forward and up away from the frame) and set it aside. The rear of the sideplate fits under and into the frame lip. If it’s stubborn, it may be caught by old oil so gently tap it with a piece of wood or plastic rather than trying to pry it off.
Turn the gun over (so the toggle hook can disengage from the mainspring catch inside the grip frame) and slide the receiver ahead and off the frame. When you reassemble this will be a critical point; you will need to see the juncture of the toggle hook and the mainspring catch and make sure the hook and catch engage and stay engaged as you pull the receiver back to its place between the frame ears. Now turn the receiver up again and fold the toggle arms up and slide the breechblock out of the receiver. It’s a delight to feel these precision-honed parts moving so easily and smoothly together. At the rear of the breechblock is a screw head that is the base of the firing pin housing. It’s spring-loaded, so depress it in and turn the screw counterclockwise past the detent and the firing pin housing will come out the back. As always when disassembling any gun, beware of small coil springs that can shoot out and get lost or injure your eye. You probably know this as a gun guy.
I usually take the grips off next. Be very careful with these, as they kinda slide up and in, and down and out, and especially on the left grip which is caught under the thumb safety axle. Many Lugers have a chip or splinter taken out of the left grip because the disassembler didn’t slide the grip down and up away from the grip frame, but just went up and cracked the wood out at the safety notch. I think it’s called the million dollar chip or something, and its meaning is the same as the idiot scratch on a 1911. I don’t have any experience with polymer grips such as found on Mauser-built Lugers and Krieghoffs, as well as on some VOPO Lugers, so this might only apply to wooden grips.
So now you’re field stripped. Further disassembly is usually not required for routine maintenance. MidwayUSA has several Luger manuals in their books section, ranging from cheap (under $10) to moderately expensive, and there are several Youtube videos showing it being done too (I recommend the one by Iraqveteran888).
The “X” is, I’m told, usually applied with a screwdriver and ball peen hammer, the chosen tools of the Soviet armorer. I’ve only seen pictures at auctions, never handled one, but the X is usually found on the left side at the serial number on military guns. VOPO guns are East German and don’t have the Soviet flair to them anyway and so typically lack that mark. The other marks on the right side are (to my eye, anyway, moving left to right on your picture):
RC --- In a government-owned armory like Erfurt, there was a Revisions-Commission (RC) made up of the Chief inspector and the Chief Administrator that kept the master and slave gauge sets and could overrule decisions made by the inspectors; usually reversing a failed inspection upon correction of the problem or if there was another reason to pass the firearm despite the out of spec issue.
Crown/B --- Inspection mark at Location 3 -receiver hardened
Crown/F --- Inspection mark at Location 26a -”Pistol ready for proof firing”
Crown/P --- Inspection mark at Location 26c -final acceptance of the receiver
Imperial Eagle --- pressure test proof mark at Location 26b
The military inspectors’ marks are generally the initial of the inspector, in old English script or German fraktur script, with the crown representing the Imperial Authority, and following the German tradition of assuming personal responsibility in craftsmanship. Your Erfurt is from a highly-respected factory. When DWM got the first army contract for the pistol that would be known as the P08, one of the terms was that the Government had the right to start manufacturing on its own after, I think, the first 50,000 pistols were delivered. That first government factory was Erfurt, and later Spandau in Berlin. Government work was oriented toward military requirements only; precision, reliability, while DWM’s tooling and assembly process had to match multiple militaries’ and commercial contract requirements. Sometimes you will hear that Erfurt Lugers are “rough” or not as nicely finished as DWM from the same period, but it’s an honorable roughness, so to speak. I understand that for some reason the Soviets hot-dipped the Lugers they were exporting, so you might consider having it refinished. Anyway, best of luck with your Luger.
Cheers,
Popoff
To disassemble your Luger, the correct way (in the old German manuals) is to remove the magazine, clear the chamber and make safe, then hold the gun in one hand just like a Glock, and pull the action with the arched fingers against the thumb hooked around the grip. Then follow the sequence I describe below in MY way to do it. I just place a towel on the bench or table to act as a cushion. Put the muzzle on the towel and put some weight on the gun or bear down enough to open the action just a bit, then with your other hand turn the takedown lever (above the trigger on the left side) down until it is hanging vertical to the gun (at right angles to the frame rails). That will unlock the sideplate so take it off the gun (pull it forward and up away from the frame) and set it aside. The rear of the sideplate fits under and into the frame lip. If it’s stubborn, it may be caught by old oil so gently tap it with a piece of wood or plastic rather than trying to pry it off.
Turn the gun over (so the toggle hook can disengage from the mainspring catch inside the grip frame) and slide the receiver ahead and off the frame. When you reassemble this will be a critical point; you will need to see the juncture of the toggle hook and the mainspring catch and make sure the hook and catch engage and stay engaged as you pull the receiver back to its place between the frame ears. Now turn the receiver up again and fold the toggle arms up and slide the breechblock out of the receiver. It’s a delight to feel these precision-honed parts moving so easily and smoothly together. At the rear of the breechblock is a screw head that is the base of the firing pin housing. It’s spring-loaded, so depress it in and turn the screw counterclockwise past the detent and the firing pin housing will come out the back. As always when disassembling any gun, beware of small coil springs that can shoot out and get lost or injure your eye. You probably know this as a gun guy.
I usually take the grips off next. Be very careful with these, as they kinda slide up and in, and down and out, and especially on the left grip which is caught under the thumb safety axle. Many Lugers have a chip or splinter taken out of the left grip because the disassembler didn’t slide the grip down and up away from the grip frame, but just went up and cracked the wood out at the safety notch. I think it’s called the million dollar chip or something, and its meaning is the same as the idiot scratch on a 1911. I don’t have any experience with polymer grips such as found on Mauser-built Lugers and Krieghoffs, as well as on some VOPO Lugers, so this might only apply to wooden grips.
So now you’re field stripped. Further disassembly is usually not required for routine maintenance. MidwayUSA has several Luger manuals in their books section, ranging from cheap (under $10) to moderately expensive, and there are several Youtube videos showing it being done too (I recommend the one by Iraqveteran888).
The “X” is, I’m told, usually applied with a screwdriver and ball peen hammer, the chosen tools of the Soviet armorer. I’ve only seen pictures at auctions, never handled one, but the X is usually found on the left side at the serial number on military guns. VOPO guns are East German and don’t have the Soviet flair to them anyway and so typically lack that mark. The other marks on the right side are (to my eye, anyway, moving left to right on your picture):
RC --- In a government-owned armory like Erfurt, there was a Revisions-Commission (RC) made up of the Chief inspector and the Chief Administrator that kept the master and slave gauge sets and could overrule decisions made by the inspectors; usually reversing a failed inspection upon correction of the problem or if there was another reason to pass the firearm despite the out of spec issue.
Crown/B --- Inspection mark at Location 3 -receiver hardened
Crown/F --- Inspection mark at Location 26a -”Pistol ready for proof firing”
Crown/P --- Inspection mark at Location 26c -final acceptance of the receiver
Imperial Eagle --- pressure test proof mark at Location 26b
The military inspectors’ marks are generally the initial of the inspector, in old English script or German fraktur script, with the crown representing the Imperial Authority, and following the German tradition of assuming personal responsibility in craftsmanship. Your Erfurt is from a highly-respected factory. When DWM got the first army contract for the pistol that would be known as the P08, one of the terms was that the Government had the right to start manufacturing on its own after, I think, the first 50,000 pistols were delivered. That first government factory was Erfurt, and later Spandau in Berlin. Government work was oriented toward military requirements only; precision, reliability, while DWM’s tooling and assembly process had to match multiple militaries’ and commercial contract requirements. Sometimes you will hear that Erfurt Lugers are “rough” or not as nicely finished as DWM from the same period, but it’s an honorable roughness, so to speak. I understand that for some reason the Soviets hot-dipped the Lugers they were exporting, so you might consider having it refinished. Anyway, best of luck with your Luger.
Cheers,
Popoff
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hapidogbreath
Member
I did get it apart and it does look like most of the numbers are matching though some look to be over-stamped... Is this common?? I am hoping to fully disassemble it this weekend and further research it. I will post pictures of the marks. Thanks for the information.
Dogbreath.
22250Rem
Member
Congrats...... I inherited a 1916 Erfurt Luger from an uncle about 16 years ago. Sound like you are well on the road to Luger knowledge and there's a lot to learn. One other thing I could add to all the previous advice would be to get it appraised by someone familiar with Lugers even if you don't plan to sell it. Sometimes prices can vary greatly depending on who you ask.
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Here's my 2 cents, for what its worth....
In your first pic, it appears there's a small flat notch cut in the leading edge of the upper receiver. This would be a clearance cut for a tangent sight, indicating that it was originally an Artillery model upper. After WW1, treaty stipulations requires the Germans to shorten the barrels on many handguns to 100mm (4"). The Erfurt arsenal was one which performed many of those conversions on long barrelled Lugers and Broomhandles.
The rear bolt toggle would be replaced in such a conversion since the rear tangent sight was chucked along with the long barrel and the rear sight notch was integral with the toggle piece. Many of these guns were "double dated" with the conversion date just aft of the original production date where your "X" now resides. The new parts were then number matched to the old resulting in a matching numbers pistol with mixed parts!
In my (admittedly layman's) opinion, you have a shortened and reworked Luger that was captured by the Soviets and later made its way here somehow. Still a nice shooter, but IMO, not collector grade or super valuable.
Enjoy!
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hapidogbreath
Member
I did disassemble and found that all but 2 numbers are matching. The safety bad has a 5 on it and the trigger looks like it was stamped over
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hapidogbreath
Member
Was Imported By Century Arms St Albans VT.
Glockula
Member
Very cool! I inherited a 1917 Erfurt all matching with one matching mag. I love to think about what a marvel it was 100 years ago.
Great pistol!
Great pistol!
Walt Sherrill
Member
Were it my Luger, I'd contact Simpson's (or another "Luger" expert) to get a definitive opinion about the gun's value. (We have a dealier here in our area -- Cherry's -- which is familiar with Lugers, and when I had a bring-back, that's where I took mine when I decided to sell. You may never sell, but you might want to answer the nagging questions you might have about what it actually is. (The comments above about it being a converted Artillery model was interesting.)
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