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Worker's "rights" / employer's rights

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Cellar Dweller, Jan 12, 2006.

?

What say you?

  1. Evil Corporations make too much anyway

    12 vote(s)
    9.7%
  2. Without doing harm, companies should do as they see fit

    62 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Maryland gov't should butt out, no "right to affordable health care"

    77 vote(s)
    62.1%
  4. it depends (if it's MY ox being gored or not)

    9 vote(s)
    7.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Cellar Dweller

    Cellar Dweller Member

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    Apparently not far enough outside Emperor Daley's
    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10727351/

    Should companies be run in their best interest as long as it is legal? Should private companies be regulated for the state's/public's benefit? Is the Government of Maryland exempt (I assume that they have over 10k employees)?
     
  2. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    I'm no fan of Wal-Mart, but healthcare and its associated costs are the responsibility of the individual, NOT their employer unless its related to on the job injuries. It is NICE when an employer can/will pick up part or all of the tab for such, but no way it should be mandatory.
     
  3. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    Corporations AND employees are subject to labor market forces.

    Employees are free to contract for their labor as they see fit, either individually or collectively, and set the price and terms of their labor, within the context of those market forces.

    In other words, if Kmart is offering 10/hr + health plan + dental, and Walmart is offering 10/hr+ healthplan, the worker is free to seek a job @ kmart.
     
  4. glockamolee

    glockamolee Member

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    geekWithA.45 Stated:


    "Corporations AND employees are subject to labor market forces.

    Employees are free to contract for their labor as they see fit, either individually or collectively, and set the price and terms of their labor, within the context of those market forces.

    In other words, if Kmart is offering 10/hr + health plan + dental, and Walmart is offering 10/hr+ healthplan, the worker is free to seek a job @ kmart."




    Although I agree with that, what also needs to be discussed (not to flame the author) is the fact that Business lobbied Congress to get 'Shafta" shoved down the throats of Americans. Now it is "Cafta."

    These agreements change market forces in favor of business.

    The problem is that business uses this leverage to reduce wages. I know, I know, business must be lean to compete. That competition IS the problem. Keep the competition national OR.... Raise the GLOBAL standard of living.

    How is an American supposed to compete against a Mongolian Yak herder who takes the train to China, and is content with a dorm shared with other employees, shared bathroom, and cafeteria meals supplied by the company. This person recieves these "benefits" by working for an American firm which previously employed Americans.

    IF... the WORLD economy had a standard of living that Americans used to be able to enjoy (Americans in this context being blue collar laborer; NOT a business owner/entrepreneur which employes said laborers), Then I wouldn't be complaining.

    I am a business owner myself, but I still see injustice taking place.
     
  5. Gordon Fink

    Gordon Fink Member

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    Corporations—especially evil ones—often underpay their low-ranking employees, but there is no right to affordable health care. Insurance benefits are part of the overall compensation package an employer may offer, so certain percentages should not be mandated.

    ~G. Fink
     
  6. azredhawk44

    azredhawk44 Member

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    Pay cuts all around!

    If I spend $100 on pay for 10 employees, I pay them $10 each. I now have to set aside $8 to pay medical for those employees. That leaves $92, or $9.20 each.

    Everyone over minimum wage will be getting a 8% pay cut probably.

    I would if I were walmart.
     
  7. trueblue1776

    trueblue1776 Member

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    It's Wal-Marts responibility that these people don't get better jobs? When Wal-Mart offers free health care, a 401K, and a company car why should anyone aspire to do anything in life? just go to work for walmart.

    Socialism = Communism, you might make more as a socialist but is is so taxed that who the hell cares. (enter the late middle aged hippie yelling no tax breaks for the rich).

    F that, I don't work my ass off to take care of bubba's wife and her 14 kids.
     
  8. trueblue1776

    trueblue1776 Member

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    PS, If these dumbasses fighting for this wanted the good life.....

    MAYBE WAL-MART WASN'T THE BEST CAREER CHOICE!!!!!!!
     
  9. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    glockamolee:

    I concur. There are far too many legislative factors that distort the market forces.

    IMO, the role of government in labor contracting is to restrain the worst abuses of both parties, and let the market sort out the rest.

    As for the global disparity, it is what it is: an intractible issue. There will always be another yak herder living in a legislatively/regulatorily unconstrained market who is willing to risk his life in a genuinely toxic factory to scrape together a few dinars to buy a t shirt and a folding knife.
     
  10. progunner1957

    progunner1957 member

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    Why anyone voluntarily works for Wal-Mart is beyond me. Wal-Mart is the biggest corporation in the world, built on the backs of minimum wage employees. Why do the people who work there keep going back?? I can't imagine that it would take that much effort to improve your employment situation, seeing as how you're already at the bottom of the barrel.

    Why do The American Sheeple flock to Wal-Mart to shop? One word: GREED. Nothing is more important than a low price. They don't give a rat's sphincter that 90% or more of the trash Wal-Mart peddles is made in Communist China, which has nuclear missles aimed at us. The Sheeple don't give a rat's sphincter that the trash Wal-Mart sells is made by coerced slave labor and that the profits go to help build China's war machine.

    With The Sheeple thinking and acting like they do, it is inevitable that the chickens will one day come home to roost - and it will be ugly when they do.

    That's why I do not work or shop at Wal-Mart. I know, I know - they're not the only ones - just the worst, IMHO.
     
  11. Gordon Fink

    Gordon Fink Member

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    No. It does not, and that is a big part of the problem with many self-styled communists.

    ~G. Fink
     
  12. Technosavant

    Technosavant Member

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    I think I might second this.

    The fact is, unskilled labor ANYWHERE will not give you:
    1) living wages
    2) full health plan
    3) generous retirement

    If these people were so hard up for such things, they can vote to unionize or go find another job. They are not doing so. There are many people who love working for Wal-Mart, so I imagine it is not hell on earth. My wife works in their pharmacy and likes it there (she wants to work for them upon graduation from pharmacy school). WM isn't the best place, but it isn't the worst, either.
     
  13. Spot77

    Spot77 Member

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    A big part of this issue is PARTISAN POLITICS.

    The Democrat controlled legislature is looking for anything they can to crucify Maryland's first Republican Governor in over 30 years. Notice that a few Democrats (who have some sense about them) voted against this ridiculous bill because it's WRONG.


    And what people aren't talking about......Who are Wal Mart's most loyal customers? Their EMPLOYEES....so if Wal Mart has to raise prices to cover this mandatory TAX, who do you think is going to shoulder the burden jsut as much as you and I? The same employees that this is supposed to help.

    My father in law works for Wal Mart and could NOT BE HAPPIER with his compensation package......and it's not like he's upper management....he is the floor manager of the paper goods department in ONE STORE.

    There hasn't been much public outpouring of support from Wal Mart employees about this. I wonder why that is?

    The Democrats in Md are looking for some more feel good legislation that they know Ehrlich will oppose, and when they railroad it past him and override his veto they'll claim how Republicans don't want to help the poor...yada yada....
     
  14. Lupinus

    Lupinus Member

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    When wal-mart was founded it was a good place, now it is crap and treats there emplyees like crap as well.
     
  15. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Lupinus, the trouble with that view is that it is contradicted by my own investigation at WalMart stores in Georgia and in Texas. Folks who work in five different WMs have told me that the pay is pretty much equal if not a bit better than what other stores pay.

    My wife's experience with some of her employees (most were women) in a small manufacturing operation: Not all wanted to work full time. Some would work for her for a few months or a year, full-time and then quit and go to work for WM, part-time. They'd come back in six months, sometimes a year or two, and work full time for maybe a year and then go back to WM. I didn't really understand the thinking, but that's the way some did.

    People of the lower strata of the economic pyramid just don't think like folks higher up the "food chain". Damfino.

    Art
     
  16. wingman

    wingman Member

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    Good thread and interesting on how people view others. If a company
    does not provide health benefits we the taxpayer end up paying with
    taxes.

    We continue to outsource jobs, many manufacturing plants have moved
    to third world countries, we import poor uneducated labor. Overall I think
    we need to ask ourselves where it's going, benefits, pensions are being
    lost.

    I don't work at WalMart and would not want too however in 20 years
    it may be the only game in town, even with the "higher education",
    so don't be too hard on the bottom feeders because you never know
    who you will meet on the way down. If I were 20-30 years of age I
    would practice saying "how can I help you today", just as a back up.
     
  17. Lupinus

    Lupinus Member

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    Art-
    While I'm sure there are worse places they are by ar not the best. The one near me when I lived in PA reguarly fired people to avoid giving reguarly schedualed pay raises. I work at a place making the same I would at walmart and am glad for it. My mother worked for walmart recently, they treated her like crap.
     
  18. glockamolee

    glockamolee Member

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    Some Theories

    The posts have shared some conmmon themes

    1) Poor Employee Treatment
    2) Employee wages that are substandard.
    3) Global Competition
    4) Mandatory Higher Education if one wants a chance at good compensation.


    Items #1, 2, and 4 are DIRECTLY related to #3. And, as noted earlier by geekWithA.45, #3 is an intractible issue. Technology and especially Traitors in our government have encouraged this to happen. It WOULD have happened anyhow due to technology; but, much slower.

    Let us not forget that Employees used to be known as Servants. Employers used to be called Masters.

    Nothing has changed except Semantics.

    The "Market" is not a free market, as we in the west like to delude ourselves into thinking. I am sure some of the former refugees from the Soviet Union and Communist Eastern Europe are wondering "what happened!" "Perhaps I should go back?!":uhoh:
     
  19. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Lupinus, I always figure that there are managers and then there are "managers". Hey, I once had a boss who treated everyone like crap, and I was a Professional Engineer among other professionals. I outlived him...

    :), Art
     
  20. hank327

    hank327 Member

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  21. Dannyboy

    Dannyboy Member

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    Oh really? So, I guess Wal-Mart employees are all being forced to work there? I guess they don't have a choice to work anywhere else? Um, has slavery been legalized without me knowing? Yeah, I didn't think so.
     
  22. Cellar Dweller

    Cellar Dweller Member

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    I saw the discussion on CNBC a few days ago, no link

    Supporters stated that individual states would have different rates, more-or-less based on COLA (unstated was what % they figured they could get away with, and how much more $$$ would be pouring into state coffers to balance budgets). A smart state would use this as leverage to attract new business, "we WILL NOT have a health tax, please move here."

    Theoretically:
    Company XYZ is currently paying 14% of healthcare...now they can cut benefits to the "legal standard" of 8% (regardless of size, using the state's mandate as precedent).

    Company ABC is giving 4.0% raises, but employees only see 3.68% in their paychecks...because the rest is "health taxed" by the state.

    Company PQR employs 11,500 in the state (5% health costs), so cuts 1501 jobs so they don't have to comply. Maybe they open a new location in a bordering state which doesn't have a "health tax" so most of the 1501 won't have to move...maybe another state offers incentives so PQR moves all 11,500 jobs (but not employees) to the other state. State loses tax base and now pays ~11,500 unemployment, workers can't get jobs at an Xmart because Xmart doesn't wan't to go over 10k employees in the state. Oops!

    Company LMN offers (formerly $20/hr) jobs for minimum wage, but covers 100% of healthcare costs (which are deductable). State tax base goes down.
     
  23. Spot77

    Spot77 Member

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    Deleted cuz' I'm in a crappy mood about this and some comments might have been seen as offensive.


    Please don't sue me. :banghead:
     
  24. ARperson

    ARperson Member

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    I actually voted for two options (since it seemed to let me do that) because I believe that both B and C were accurate descriptions of how I feel.

    Companies should run their business as they see fit, without infringing on the liberties of others. They are, afterall, PRIVATE companies, and in a perfect world (yeah, I know, the big unrealistic caveat), they would want to keep their customers and citizens of the areas where they do business happy by avoiding hurting them.

    Also, I completely agree that it is the INDIVIDUAL'S responsibility to take care of any and all insurance issues. Aside from the benefit of group pricing associated with having insurance through an employer, I would rather get paid $50K a year without any other benefits than $43K and benefits. I think I can spend my money better than my employer. Not to mention that I don't enjoy paying for other people's medical/etc. either.
     
  25. Technosavant

    Technosavant Member

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    And my wife once worked 6 hours and 15 minutes on the clock. If you work 6 hours or more, you are supposed to take a lunch. She got in trouble over it (this was months ago).

    WM corporate is very careful to make sure the workers take their breaks. That case is 5 years old, and you will always find renegade managers who are trying to make their store budgets look better.
     
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