World's Smallest Poltical Quiz

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Fundamental Impossibility of "Fascism"

No Corporation can force anyone to do anything. Economic power is NOT in any way, shape, or form comparable to political power in a Capitalistic system. If there's a "wall of separation between government and business" then businesses would not "buy" politicians, because what could a politician sell them? The "flaws" that exist in our system exist precisely because the government got involved. EVERY failure of business you've listed can be traced DIRECTLY to government involvment.

Taking a graph, and charting the jobless rate during various presidencies is nonsense, Hoover was as much responsible for the Great Depression as I spoons are responsible for Rosie O'Donnel being fat, or guns are for crime. I've told you before correlation != causation Statistics 101. Additionally, the measurement for "joblessness" has always been fuzzy at best, were you aware FDR didn't count people on welfare as being jobless? Further the implication is that Bush is somehow a representative of Laissez-faire Capitalism, he sure as Milton Friedman ain't.

3 MAJOR factors in the current recession:
1. TSA: the "increased" security at airports created an indirect cost on the rest of the economy measured in wasted hours that could be put to more productive use, as well as the creation of jobs that would be better off in other sectors where they would produce wealth. The direct costs of putting an armed guard on every flight would be greater, but would save on the order of HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of dollars to the general economy.
2. The Microsoft Trial was the catalyst for the whole debacle. Every billion dollars MS spends defending itself against absurd claims of monopoly is a billion dollars they can't spend creating new wealth (which in turn results in new jobs).
3. Steel Tariffs: we spend, as mentioned by me in a previous thread where we discussed how you don't know economics, $128,063 per job we "save" in the steel industry. It would be cheaper to just write them a check for the rest of their lives, than it is to impose protective tariffs.

Government creates jobs? Pfff, FDR didn't do a darned thing to stop the depression, if you read the latest scholarly research on it, FDR is coming out with egg all over his face. Dozens of economists, including 2 nobel prize winners have identified all sorts of problems with FDR's new deal. Even the TVA was a waste.

-Morgan
 
… actually I meant that your graph must have a fundamental flaw, since it rates Carter better than Reagan or Clinton …
Wow! You are correct. I never really paid attention to the "Annual Gain/Loss" number that you are referring to. But I am now and it seems to me that their calculations are wrong, unless they are refering to the most jobs gained/lost in one single year.

If, however, it is average jobs gained/lost per year over the period of their presidency:

Carter should have an average annual job gain of: +2.59
Reagan should have an average annual job gain of: +2.01
Clinton should have an average annual job gain of: +2.84

But here's the kicker:
Hoover should have an average annual job loss of: -1.93
Bush should have an average annual job loss of: -1.04 (using the -2.7 (million jobs) number from the article cited below the graph and divided by 2.6 years.)

No Corporation can force anyone to do anything.
lobbyists with bundles of cash and golden parachutes to give out + Media Consolidation = things like getting the big bucks to rebuild Iraq
 
This proves what?

K... even if I grant (for the sake of argument) that lobbyists managed to persuade the government to pay them to do what they cannot do themselves.... and totally ignore that the companies involved are not very big ones.... this doesn't prove that a business can force anyone to do anything.

If the Senator didn't give them the money would the company have the power to arrest the Senator? Suppose the Senator still says no, what can they do then? No matter how you slice it the Senator has a LOT more choice than I do over whether or not I want to participate in the Social Security scam.

-Morgan
 
what can they do then?
Not give the Senator that golden parachute when he/she retires. Help fund the Senator's opponent to get a friendly Senator in there. Dig up dirt/make up dirt and pay for television ads smearing the Senator. Ask a friendly propagandist on the radio or TV to smear the Senator. etc. etc.

Halliburton says KBR unit revenue profit, sales soar

HOUSTON, United States (AFP) - US oil industry services giant Halliburton said Thursday its Kellogg Brown and Root unit's profits rose four-fold and sales leapt 80 percent, boosted by work in Iraq.

Profits from the unit's operations soared to 49 million dollars in the three months to September from 12 million dollars a year earlier, helped by "government services activity in the Middle East," Halliburton said.

KBR, the engineering and construction division that netted a no-bid government contract to help rebuild Iraq's shattered oil industry, also posted an 80-percent jump in sales to 2.3 billion dollars. "
…
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...9/bs_afp/us_oil_iraq_halliburton_031029181531

House Nixes Anti-Profiteering Penalties in Iraq Spending Bill
 
Profits from the unit's operations soared to 49 million dollars
Big money we're talkin' about huh? Wow, $49 million. Big change for you and me, but in the real market, that's chump change.

No option you gave this hypothetical business involves the use of force.

Wanna list examples in which a company has actually used ANY of the options you're discussing? Or is this just some crazy left-wing-radical-conspiracy theory? :rolleyes:

-Morgan
 
Big money we're talkin' about huh? Wow, $49 million. Big change for you and me, but in the real market, that's chump change.
…
KBR, the engineering and construction division that netted a no-bid government contract to help rebuild Iraq's shattered oil industry, also posted an 80-percent jump in sales to 2.3 billion dollars.
…

Maybe $49 million is chump change, but what about 1 billion dollars from their (note the no-bid government contract) engineering and construction division?

Calculation:
2.3-2.3*(1/1.8)=~1.02
 
Failed Math didn'tcha?

"80-percent jump in sales to 2.3 billion dollars."

Sales != profits. I love how people pretend like we're just giving them the money. We're buying their services, services which, incidentally, they are better at providing than anyone else.

This of course fails to prove that businesses use force.

-Morgan
 
Businesses sometimes *want* to use force... of course they can not do so directly. Getting legislators to pass laws that stifle competition is one way business brings force to bear. Granted, they had to bribe a legislator to do it. I'd say the legislator is more to blame, but if the desire wasn't there, it wouldn't be satisfied. (Of course, ultimately everyone loses out, because restricted competition slows down the rate of real economic growth... and that means technology advances more slowly.. and we all lose out on what could have been.)

Also, LLC's benefit from government extention of soverign immunity. They aren't true 'free market' entities. So in that regard, any business that is an LLC does have the power to bring force to bear, at least in terms of shielding themselves from total liability. Again, it is something that is 'granted' by government, so technically the business isn't doing it, but rather taking advantage of what the government is willing to provide.
 
Don Galt,

By the way, if you disagree, show some evidence to disagree, or make an argument for why I'm wrong.
You first.


In case you weren’t aware, the burden of proof is on the person making the assertion…that’s you.
 
Glockler,

Most people that I know who use drugs use marijuana, and that goes for all classes and races. The ones that use extasy and coke do tend to be white and middle to upper class. Alcohol and cigarettes, however, are used by everyone.
There is a whole lot more to drug use than “marryjane†and even counting that there is a lot of non “middle class, white, well employed, and self-insured†abusers.
 
Yes, that was one of my points. Folks that are addicted to ok'ed drugs like booze, nicotine, and prescription meds are not counted as being part of the "drug problem". As far as the illegal stuff is concerned, it's just been my experience that marijuana makes the lion's share of it.
 
Pax--

I disagree. This is not a scholorly debate... I have made an argument, not an assertion. I have backed up that argument. Those who demand statistics are not, generally, willing to engage in debate-- they are ignoring debate by making a counter assertion and demanding that I put up statistics (Which they will then ignore, call irrelevant, or whatever.)

I've been in enough debates to know that the demand for statistics is usually a waste of time.

But here's an article with some citations that back my statements:
http://condor.stcloudstate.edu/~ltripp/nicholas-ertz.htm
 
w4rma:
"I consider myself both a socialist and a capitalist."

I commend you for your honesty. This makes it much easier to discuss with you, because I don't have to try and prove you are a socialist.

Unfortunately, socialism is a system that is diametrically opposed to capitalism.

I believe you when you say you are both-- you recognize the power of capitalism, and you want to harness it to socialist ends. That is consistent with your positions.

Unfortunately, this is a contradiction. Rather than try and show the contradiction here (Which would be very difficult because of the nature of these discussions) I would like to make a proposal to you.

I will give you a name of a book and ask you to read it. You can do the same for me. In fact, we'll each read roughtly the same number of pages of argument (in case my book is longer than yours, you can give me a couple). At the end of reading these arguments, we can come back to the subject and debate it-- in any form or forum you choose.

I believe after reading the book I suggest you will either change your mind-- or you will be able to formulate arguments that will have a chance of changing my mind. And possibly the book you give me may do the same thing.

Are you willing to do this? We both are assured of having better arguments coming out of it, I believe.

Don
 
w4rma--

Your graph is very interesting! It shows, to me, that we are still paying for the Roosevelt administration.

Yes, he did grow jobs... but an interesting thing to see woudl be that graph along with one showing total federal revenue as a percentage of the GDP for those same periods.

I think you will find that in the Great Depression, Roosevelt made a lot of "jobs" in make work projects, but did massive damage to the economy in doing so. (The money that the feds collected would have produced far more jobs had it been left in the economy.)

It would also be interesting to see a version of that graph that breaks these things down by year, rather than presidency.

Did you get it from a stats site that could produce such graphs for us?

Don
 
"Tax cuts for the Rich!"

Here's a good article that shows the bad math behind the "Tax cuts for the rich" argument:

http://www.davehitt.com/feb01/Democrats.html
 
"There is a whole lot more to drug use than “marryjane†and even counting that there is a lot of non “middle class, white, well employed, and self-insured†abusers."

Well, then, show some evidence that marijuana is not the most common drug, or that middle class people are not the average drug user.

After all, you made an assertion (quoted above) so the burden of proof is on you.

:neener:
 
Don Galt:

By the way, part of my point which seems to have been missed by everybody is, that if you believe in the constitution, your answer to all the questions in the smallest quiz would be %100 libertarian.

I have to disagree with this comment. One of the questions in the quiz related to immigration policy, where the "correct" libertarian answer is to allow free and open borders to any who wish to work in the US.

If the Constitution defines any governmental function explicitly it defines the power of the Federal Government to control trade accross our borders through customs duties and tarriffs, and defines the power of the Federal Government to control immigration through defining criteria of citizenship.

A strict constructionist view of the Constitution does not imply a Libertarian political view.

The people who vote for republicans or Democrats do so only because they either have no principles or think that they have to vote against the guy from the other party

Not true. There are as many "principled" Republican Party voters as Libertarian, and many "principled" Republican Party politicians. Former Sen. Bob Smith (R-NH) for example. There are plenty of Libertarian voters who vote on bone-headed principles such as no Federal income tax for example. I don't like them either but nobody is going to fund even NASA on tarriffs let alone the DoD. Or perhaps the Libertarians have some utopian ideas regarding no need for an armed force to defend this country.

There is some percentage of the population that is completely irrational-- they are totalitarian or anti-liberty for reasons that are not based on reason. They make up %30 of the population. Religious Fundamentalists are a good example.

This is the such the exact opposite of the truth that it could have been written by Michael Moore. The religous "fundamentalists" in the US are the ones who broke ground for the rest on home schooling for example.
 
There are plenty of Libertarian voters who vote on bone-headed principles such as no Federal income tax for example. I don't like them either but nobody is going to fund even NASA on tarriffs let alone the DoD

So it's bone-headed for me to actually wan to keep what I earn and not have a modified police state poking into my finances looking for things to hang me on?

Do your homework next time, the income tax accounts for approx. 1/3 of Federal revenues. We could easily eliminate it but we'd have to cut spending, are you ready for that?
 
Well, then, show some evidence that marijuana is not the most common drug, or that middle class people are not the average drug user.
Don, Don, Don, I never made the assertion that some other drug (or even a collection of other drugs) was abused more commonly than Marijuana. I’d be the last person to suggest that. What I said, was that there is a lot more to drug use than marijuana. Meaning a lot of other drugs are used in this country other than just “green leafy substances†and a whole lot of users that do more than smoke pot and eat cheatos. I’ll say again, you made a claim, you back it up.
 
http://www.samhsa.gov/oas/nhsda/ethnic/ethn1013.htm


I'd go out on a limb to say that non-crack cocaine, prescription drugs, and marijuana are the primary (illicit) drugs among middle and upper-class users. Total percentages, as the link above shows, would indicate drug users are more likely to be impoverished than not.
 
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Neither did I. I won't be using it, nonetheless, as it sounds like a word that only an academician or govt. wonk would use.
 
ahenry--

I already backed my claims. I note that you choose not to back yours, and repeat your demand that I do mine.

I think responding to your demand for citations was a waste of time.
 
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