Worried About JHP's Not Expanding

[HelpUsRonPaul]

i'm very concerned with my hollow points not expanding (usually caused by plugging up with clothing), so i decided to carry hornady ftx in my .380 for obvious reasons.

i want a similar (plugging resistant) bullet in 9mm but don't know which is best, due to lack of good ammo tests.

i've narrowed it down to 3 different types (still open to suggestion). which do you think is best of the three and why/why not the others?

HORNADY 9MM LUGER 115 GR FTX CRITICAL DEFENSE - i havn't seen any tests of this ammo, let me know if you do. i'm looking for a test through clothing into gel.

Glaser 9mm+P 100gr Pow'RBal - similar results with the federal efmj's (listed below) but it looses its jacket too much.

Federal 105gr Expanding Full Metal Jacket (EFMJ) - i like these, but i can't find a test of them going through clothing into gel either. my common sense tells me it wouldn't have a problem expanding through clothing, but my common sense has gotten me into trouble before.

one last note, i will not be filling my own hollow points (with wax, plastic etc.) because i wont be testing them.

so, what do you think?

EDIT: what's going on here...?... i'm talking about 9mm, not .45, .380 or anything else. i appreciate your help and opinions but i'm only interested with info for 9mm right now.

 

[pps]

Carry a .45 The bullets are pre expanded even if they fail to open.

 

[oldFred]

lol PPS!

Seriously, carry the heaviest JHP for your 380 as possible.

 

[Boba Fett]

Carry a .45 The bullets are pre expanded even if they fail to open.

ROFL!


HelpUsRonPaul
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Winchester%209mm%20Silvertip%20JHPs.htm

http://www.proload.com/s-15-handgun-ammunition.aspx

Just some other options for you.

I like the Winchester Ranger in 9mm and 45 ACP.

I can't tell you how the Ranger 9mm will expand, but the Ranger 45 has had some pretty good results according to the tests on this site.


I too was concerned about expansion in my 380 so I went with the Hornady as well.

I've shot Hornady and Federal 9mm and haven't had a problem with either.

Wish I could give you some better specifics and expansion data, but hope the links give you some further insight in your decision.

 

[pps]

"EDIT: what's going on here...?... i'm talking about 9mm, not .45, .380 or anything else. i appreciate your help and opinions but i'm only interested with info for 9mm right now."

Just giving you crap in a friendly tone (that you can't see over the screen)

My opinion (it's free so ygwypf) is that in .380 you have sacrificed enough velocity AND bullet weight that if it opens it may not go deep enough to hit anything important. Try the Buffalo Bore hardcast and go for the penetration. Again, in .380 you have chosen concealment at the cost of power and you will be choosing either penetration, or expansion...but it is doubtful you will get both.

Item 27A/20: 100gr. Hard-Cast FN @ 1125 fps 280 ft. lbs

In 9mm, any of the SD cartridges 124gr or more in JHP flavor should be fine. Personally, I'd not go lighter than 124gr...jmho

 

[sturmgewehr]

I would not carry hollowpoints in a .380. You need a minimum of 12" of reliable penetration through clothing, skin, muscle, fat, even bone for a handgun to be truly effective for defensive purposes. A .380 is pushing it with ball rounds, using hollowpoints is counter productive and generally a bad idea.

Get a hot loaded ball round for your .380 and go for what's important, penetration. Not only is a ball round better for penetration, it's better for feeding reliability too.

 

[MCgunner]

The .380 critical defense is impressive. If I carried .380 much, I'd get some to try. I have a 9x19 I carry mostly and they make critical defense in 9x19 as well as .38 +P which I carry a lot, too. This is a good development and the 10 inches of penetration in jello WITH expansion for the .380 stuff is rather impressive.

I don't carry a .45 much. I can't find pants with that big a pocket.

 

[geronimo509]

I just bought some Speer Gold Dots 124 Gr +p for short barreled guns. I have no idea how good they are but they sound pretty good. Everything I've heard said they are some of the best rounds for small 9mm's.

 

[Logos]

Not to rile you, but just a thought.

I carry a 9mm and had your same concerns about winter (being that, I too, have severe winter weather and wondered about penetration through heavy clothing).

My solution was to carry a Smith 686 .357 in the the winter. Heavy clothing also means easier concealment.

Summer gun/winter gun.

 

[makarovnik]

powerball

 

[Kind of Blued]

Think of it this way. If your hollowpoint fails to expand, the bad guy is still getting shot. It'll be as effective as a .380 FMJ round that European police used for a long long time.

That said, I'd still recommend testing the loads you're interested in. The Glasers and Federal loads will probably feed better than the Hornady due to the bullet profile/meplat.

 

[chieftain]

Here are some REAL and scientific results by the leading terminal ballistics researcher in the country today, Dr Gary Roberts.

This is for BUG’s: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19914

This if for 9/40/45: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

And this is for where to put those little beasties: Http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001690;p=1

Pick well, for real reasons, not opinion or because the media thought so.
Good luck.

Fred

 

[Hk Dan]

The FBI ballistics lab has done extensive testing through different media. They rate the Ranger SXT, Federal, and Golden Saber at 80% through 4 layers of new denim.

 

[bikerbill]

I've got some of that Hornady ammo ordered from Cabela's; sposed to be in this week or next ... haven't seen any tests but I love Pow'RBall in my .45 and I'm hoping the Hornady works as well in my warm weather carry gun, a Kahr PM9 ...

 

[jwr747]

if you Google the world,and get all the reports and facts and miths ect from local/state/federal cops plus the "morgue reports" you will see that on a good day with stars aligned and mouth held right a HP bullet will work as designed about 80% of the time.don't matter if it's 22cal or 50cal. out of Hornady's test barrel,into balistic gel,may get expansion 100% of the time.put a tee shirt,a denim shirt,a jacket ect, in the way ,it's a crap shoot. jwr

 

[HelpUsRonPaul]

"if you Google the world,and get all the reports and facts and miths ect from local/state/federal cops plus the "morgue reports" you will see that on a good day with stars aligned and mouth held right a HP bullet will work as designed about 80% of the time.don't matter if it's 22cal or 50cal. out of Hornady's test barrel,into balistic gel,may get expansion 100% of the time.put a tee shirt,a denim shirt,a jacket ect, in the way ,it's a crap shoot. jwr"

don't take this as an insult, but i'm not sure what your point is.
are you trying to say that 80% is the best to hope for?

it's obvious that no hollow point is 100% reliable, but i want the most consistent and reliable hp with minimal sacrafice of stopping power, just like everyone else. i've seen some tests through clothing for the hornady and others, but i was impressed with hornady more than any other i saw (in .380 that is). but i'm still looking for more results and good tests in 9mm.

 

[Deer Hunter]

No Federal HSTs?

Come out of the dark ages, my friend.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Why not look at FBI tests?

Also, if I used a .380, I'd probably use FMJ.

 

[CWL]

Penetration, penetration, penetration in .380. FMJ and lots of practice to hit where you aim.

BGs can be really really big nowadays, add some heavy clothes and you may not penetrate vitals with a JHP in .380.

 

[rbernie]

are you trying to say that 80% is the best to hope for?

The point is that there is no magic bullet, and there never will be.

Lab tests are static affairs. Everything occurs in a linear and predictable progression. Gel tests are no different. That's not how self-defense shootings occur.

Most times, self-defense shootings involve targets that are moving and changing orientation/positioning. You're likely to find that your shots have to penetrate an upraised arm or somesuch before getting to center-mass. You're likely to find that center-mass really wasn't, and that the bullet only went thru 3"-4" of flesh in a graze wound, because the target was twisting and moving. And so on and so on. No lab test can simulate how you might need that bullet to perform. Yes - you should want to use an effective bullet. But it's important to note that no single test or battery of tests will tell you how a bullet will work in YOUR self-defense situation.

It is also important to note that expansion without penetration is relatively useless; you need to hit vital bits to stop an attacker. The FBI settled on 12" of penetration in calibrated ballistic gel as their minimum standard, and that seems to be well-accepted. I would always value penetration over expansion, up to that 12" depth.

In the end, it's far better to pick a round that has a good test reputation and that you can afford to practice with (in addition to practicing with range/target ammo) often enough to be sure that it's reliable in your pistol, instead of buying a few boxes of Uber Extreme Super Expanding Gold Ranger Hydra Splat and presuming that they'll do the deed if the time comes.

And yes - that means that economy of the round is a variable to consider, along with demonstrated reliable functioning in your pistol, along with test data showing more than 12" of penetration and reasonable expansion in calibrated gel tests conducted in accordance with the FBI test protocols.

i want a similar (plugging resistant) bullet in 9mm but don't know which is best, due to lack of good ammo tests

There are TONS of tests out on the web, from firearmstactical.com to brassfetcher.com to a compilation of older data on Zak's demigod.org site.

 

[jc650]

Spend as much time practicing as you do researching and it wont matter if the bullet expands or not. There are only so many tests you can look at.

 

[psyopspec]

put a tee shirt,a denim shirt,a jacket ect

Lots of talk of denim over gel, denim over COM... I just wanted to state that, for the record, I've never felt threatened by a man in a Canadian tuxedo. Just call the fashion police and be a good witness.

 

[Boba Fett]

In the end, it's far better to pick a round that has a good test reputation and that you can afford to practice with (in addition to practicing with range/target ammo) often enough to be sure that it's reliable in your pistol, instead of buying a few boxes of Uber Extreme Super Expanding Gold Ranger Hydra Splat and presuming that they'll do the deed if the time comes.

And yes - that means that economy of the round is a variable to consider, along with demonstrated reliable functioning in your pistol, along with test data showing more than 12" of penetration and reasonable expansion in calibrated gel tests conducted in accordance with the FBI test protocols.

I agree with most of what you said with the exception of "economy."

Considering what you just said, shouldn't the economy of a self-defense round kind of be a moot point? If the best ammunition is reliable and proven and costs more than everything else, so what?

I can make a few lifestyle changes and skip the super-size, change my own oil, etc., and quickly make up the few cents per round difference in price to ensure I have the best ammunition to protect me and my family. Why would I want to limit that protection by settling for the second best and cheaper ammo because I couldn't skip a few "biggie fries super size" at McDonalds?

 

[rbernie]

Why would I want to limit that protection by settling for the second best and cheaper ammo because I couldn't skip a few "biggie fries super size" at McDonalds?

My point is that quality and volume of practice has more impact upon keeping you alive than does the choice of bullet. If you approach the problem from that perspective, you'll rapidly conclude that 'the perfect is the enemy of the good'. Spend your money and time learning HOW to shoot under stress and from awkward positions and with professional instruction, instead of spending the money on cases of The Potentially Magic Bullet.

Fancy kit is no substitute for experience and proper (instructor-led) training, no matter how much us'n gearheads like to hyperfocus on kit.

I'd rather practice weekly with (and carry) WWB HPs @ $20/50 and take a couple of defensive shooting classes than spend my money on UberExtremeSuperExpandingGoldRangerHydraSplats @ $30/20 and not be able to afford the classwork that just may keep me alive. The cost difference over just one month (shooting weekly) is almost enough to pay for a basic pistolcraft class.

 

[Boba Fett]

rbernie
My point is that quality and volume of practice has more impact upon keeping you alive than does the choice of bullet. ... Spend your money and time learning HOW to shoot under stress and from awkward positions and with professional instruction, instead of spending the money on cases of The Potentially Magic Bullet.

Gotcha and totally agree. The "magic bullet" will only be "magic" if you can hit anything and for that you need practice.

I do believe that some of the rounds perform better than others, but not from the standpoint of "one shot, one kill" or any sort of "guaranteed to do _____ every time."

And just like I believe that you shouldn't limit your choice of round because of a few cents difference, I also would advocate cutting the little splurges (i.e. supersizing) and saving up for some training classes (like you were talking about).