Worrisome signs on spent brass?

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spartan00054

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So I got my first box of of 168 gr. Hornady Amax bullets, loaded them up in once fired PPU brass, with the recommended start load of 42.0 gr. of Varget. The spent brass is showing some interesting spiderweb-looking patterns on the outer case wall and flattened primers, and one round ended my range day by losing its rim to the extractor and getting stuck in the chamber. :fire:

What's going on here?
 
Did you also get ejector marks/swipes? I've never heard of spiderweb marks before, but man, that really doesn't sound good. If your bolt face is leading any sort of imprints, I'd call it excessive pressure. Did you get good ubturation on the case neck (i.e. is your case clean around the neck, meaning it got enough pressure to seal against the chamber?)
 
A case stuck in the chamber because the rim failed would not ruin my range day. I do not own a PPU case, I do not believe the case head stamp was involved, I do not have a clue what rifle, what chamber you were/are loading for so the powder/amount and bullet weight is just under nice to know information.

I do agree, all signs indicate something went wrong, I measure before and after, I weigh before and after meaning I weigh components, primer, case, bullet and powder, after loading I know the weight of the loaded round, and I have scales, lots of scales, to check for mistakes, I weigh, I do not weigh all loaded rounds, but if something goers wrong, I can stop, weigh and make a determination.

On the other hand If I did not have a clue as to the weight of the components, after weighing the loaded rounds, I still would not have a clue.

F. Guffey
 
I have seen crackling finish on cases, seems it appeals to some that that ADD something to the cleaning process, I use walnut or corn type media and nothing.

F. Guffey

And to save days of tumbling on the worst of cases (just once) I use vinegar and nothing, no salt, no water added, just vinegar. Just how good does it have to be or how much better can it get, maximum time, 15 minutes and even that much time is not required, if I want to slow down the process, I add water, before using vinegar to clean cases I can add it to hot peppers, yes vinegar, peppers and nothing but a jar and lid, I prefer a plastic lid, for short term metal can be used.
 
Your AR10-308win. is showing signs of high pressure with your starting load. This can be a PPU brass problem, it may have a smaller internal volume compared to other brands.. Try different brass or reduce your powder charge.. Did you check the headspace with your Go/ No-Go gauges? The spider webbing is from a over maximum load when the brass does not spring back after firing. Lack of spring back also will let the extractor rip the rim from the case body. Link to build > http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=566575
 
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...spiderweb-looking patterns on the outer case wall and flattened primers, and one round ended my range day by losing its rim to the extractor....
Assuming the rifle fires commercial w/o problem, I agree with the diagnosis of a brass problem.

A photo would be really nice.... ;)
 
I'm on the same page as other's regarding the need for more information. We need for you to elaborate more, a lot more.
What rifle, cartridge, OAL, and primer?
Did you weight the powder charges on a scale?
What method are you usng to measure the OAL, and how did you determine that to be the proper OAL for your firearm?
Are you FL sizing or necking the brass?
But regarding case head separation, it's a pretty good indication of extremely high pressures. If we had more information we could offer some possible explanations as to the cause.
Please
 
Sorry about the spotty information. I was tired, spooked, and was hoping this was just something I hadn't seen before. Alas, there rarely are easy answers.

The rifle I am using is an AR-10 with Armalite's 7.62/.308 chamber, which I have been told will more than accommodate higher pressures of commercial .308

I did check the chamber with go no gauges. It was exactly as it should have been.

Brass is always full length sized, as this is a semi-automatic rifle. Primers are garden variety Federal Large Rifle.

I measure powder using an RCBS scale thusly: weigh case, zero scale to case weight, add powder, weigh case and powder again, check to see that I got the correct load.

COAL of 2.800" is checked using a set of digital calipers. This was the OAL given by my loading manual and is pretty close to maximum length that will fit in the magazine.

One photo shows the damaged rim, another shows the spiderweb pattern in the wall of the brass, and the third shows another rim that looks like it is about to pull off.

I am going to the range again today, and will pull apart the remaining loaded rounds I have, reduced their loads and see what happens.
 

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The primers ("appear") OK. If it's doing the ripped-rim thing w/ that load of Varget, it sounds like either a brass problem or a timing problem. (I had an FN49 that loved to tear rims off until I went to a faster powder/opened the gas port up, but you shouldn't have that problem w/ what you describe.)

What's it do with commercial (or military) loads?
 
It ate the Prvi Partizan that those spent cases are from without a problem. Ate Radway Green and DAG German surplus fine, Remington UMC and Hornady TAP-FPD fine. Only ammo it has been troublesome with was some Venezuelan military surplus. It FTE'd almost every round, but I think that was due to poor quality in general on those rounds. I resized that brass and it works fine now.

As far as fast powders go, that may be it. In addition to the Varget powered loads that I was testing when this happened, I loaded identical rounds with BL-C(2) for comparison purposes. No problems there.
 
DEFINITELY OVER PRESSURE! Sorry for the caps, but I see an ejector mark on the casehead, and that means holy-crap-high pressure. The enormous pressure inside the case is squishing brass into the bolt face so hard, the brass is flowing into the ejector plug recess.

5762677353_1597c4aa59_z.jpg
 
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Thanks for that link, 243winxb. If there are ejector marks on the case head without the primer being completely flat, it may indeed be that the brass is too soft.

Don
 
Well guys, I made the mistake of leaving the brass on my kitchen table. It was designated as clutter by my girlfriend and disposed of, so no more pictures.

I went shooting again yesterday, with reduced loads of 41.5 and 41.0 gr. of Varget behind the same 168gr. AMAX out of the same rifle. The spent brass showed no signs of overpressure, and there were no stuck cases. Loads were even fairly accurate out to 200 yards, which is the practical limit of my skill and optics.

From what threads on THR and around the web have said, I guess I am going to chalk this up to PRVI being as thick as military brass. I weighed it against some Remington .308 brass and it was quite a bit heavier. Live and learn, I guess. Glad this didn't cost me a rifle or a limb.
 
If ejector marks were the only indication soft brass could be considered the culprit. But my goodness, these cases are displaying most, if not all of the high pressure signs identifiable without the use of a transducer. Something serious is happening and I think I would start by re-evaluating your powder charge, seating depth, case length, and OAL. If the answer can't be found in those areas you might need to go back to the drawing board and also possibly have the chamber inspected for problems.
 
Yeah, hard to tell anything by those pic's. That being said, 42.0gr of Varget in milsurp brass with a 168gr bullet is not an over-pressure load.

Don
I would agree with that. I've been shooting 44gr Varget out of PPU cases with 168 amax bullets with no signs of over pressure, and have found it to be an extremely accurate load for my rifle.
 
I checked the powder charges, they were as expected. The cases in question were all once fired, deprimed, tumbled, lubed, full length resized, trimmed, chamfered and deburred, blown clean of debris with compressed air, primed with a Lee Autoprime, charged with powder that was weighed on an RCBS Rangemaster, charge double checked by weighing case before charge, and again with powder in, bullet seated to 2.800" +/- .005, checked with calipers, and fired in an almost brand new (<300 rounds) Armalite chamber that has never given me any trouble to speak of, besides with the aformentioned low quality Venezuelan surplus ammo. That brass cycled fine after it went through my reloading process.

The necks were not any more or less clean than the factory ammo fired before and after, so I can't really speak to wether obturation is an issue. The only thing that seemed odd to me during loading was that on the initial run of cases loaded with 43.5, 44.0, and 44.5 grains of Varget, there didn't look to be enough room to seat the bullet without compressing the powder. Those rounds were never fired, because the problems occured at 42.0-43.0 gr., and I later pulled those rounds and reduced powder charges to 41.0 and 41.5 grs., which, upon firing, appeared to perform normally.

Based on all of this, the only thing that I can think of is that I got brass from an unusually thick batch.

Now that I have some R-P headstamp in my reloading queue, I may test this theory by loading those with known safe loads of 41.5 grs, and working back up toward 42.0 gr. in .1 grain increments. Sadly, I won't have a chance to put it to the test for awhile, as Federal Grand Jury duty starts next week. :cuss:
 
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