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Would it be a straw purchase if...

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Lupinus, Jan 1, 2006.

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  1. Lupinus

    Lupinus Member

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    So here is the thing. I want a handgun but I am only 20. To my understanding it is technically legal for me to own one but not for me to buy one. If I were to pick one out and pay for it but had a parent do the paperwork would it be considered a straw purchase?

    How should I go about buying one and legally doing so? I don't want to illegally do it, want to keep it legal. If I had to do it illegally I would rather just wait.

    Advice?
     
  2. redranger1

    redranger1 Member

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    yes i would say that it would be considered a straw purchase. but it could be given to you as a gift.:D
     
  3. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

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    If your state so allows, you can make a private purchase of a handgun without conflict with federal law.

    If you pay for a gun and have someone else do the paperwork, that is a straw purchase and any reputable FFL would not go through with it. The person who pluncks down the cash needs to be the one to complete the 4473. That person could then gift the handgun to you legally as long as it is legal for a person your age, in your state, to own a handgun.
     
  4. Lupinus

    Lupinus Member

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    So how bout if I were to just point say "that one" and the parent plunks down the cash and then gifts it? Basicly a gift that was picked out by the person getting it because the giver doesn't know much of anything about the gift?

    I don't mind loopholing the law, I just don't want to break it.
     
  5. Mauserguy

    Mauserguy Member

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    Pointing and saying that one and having the gun immediately being "gifted" to you sounds like a straw purchase to me. Having said that, I won't lose any sleep over hearing about it, as long as you don't use it to hold up a Quicky Mart.
    Mauserguy
     
  6. M.E.Eldridge

    M.E.Eldridge Member

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    When I was under 18 and my father and I would go to gun shows, if I saw something inexpensive he would buy it for me, fill out the paperwork, own it in his name, but I would pay him back by doing extra chores, forfiting my allowance,etc, until the price was 'repaid'.Then he would let me have it and keep it in my room. My uncle who was a sheriff's deputy knew we did this and said their wasn't anything explicitly illegal about it.
     
  7. Azrael256

    Azrael256 Member

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    I think pointing and saying "that one" might fly. As I understand it, if you are legally prohibited from owning the gun and you do that, it would be a straw purchase. IIRC, there is no problem buying a gun for someone who can legally own it, regardless of the circumstances.

    That Said(tm) the last time I saw the "that one" in operation, the purchasing party asked the salesman who's info he wanted for the NICS, and he asked for the recipient's. Both parties had their CHLs in hand, which pre-empted the NICS check, but the recipient's info went down on the 4473.

    Eldridge, it works fine in your case because you never legally assumed ownership of the firearm even after you had "paid off" your dad. Dad bought it, dad legally owned it, and it was gifted to you when you became eligible for ownership. There was no transfer involved at the time of the sale, even if dad let you carry it to the car. If he had turned you loose in public with your gun and a box of ammo, there might have been problems. My dad did the same thing with me. The two guns I had were legally his until I was 18 even though they stayed in my closet. This situation is different because Lupinus is eligible for ownership, so me giving him the gun constitutes a transfer.
     
  8. kage genin

    kage genin Member

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    Couldn't you just have it legally transferred to you through the FFL right after your parent takes possession of it? Or depending on your state you may not even have to do so through an FFL.
     
  9. DevLcL

    DevLcL Member

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    I dunno if this helps at all but...

    I possess 3 handguns that are legally owned by my dad. All three times I just gave my pops the cash before going in the store, once inside I just pointed out what I was interrested in and my dad said "I want that one" and he filled out all the paperwork. The salesman behind the counter was even talking to ME about accessories, different calibers, things of that nature while directing all conversation about the actual purchase twords my father. The salesman knew exactly what we were doing and seemed to have no problem what-so-ever, indeed, he even helped out. Then when we got home the pistol was basically mine to keep.

    Keep in mind I live just outside of SF. Handguns are BARELY legal here! :what:

    -Dev
     
  10. joab

    joab Member

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    No it isn't. Pointing does not make it a straw purchase. Who supplies the money determines if it is a straw purchase.

    Straw purchases have nothing to do with whether the recipient is prohibited or not, except that they are usually made for people who are prohibitted and the law is aimed at them.
    A straw purchase is defined by who supplies the funds for the purchase

    This is explained on the 4473 that you fill out and sign to buy a gun
     
  11. Amadeus

    Amadeus Member

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    I am glad that you're pursuing this issue with due diligence. Some states do allow a parent to transfer a firearm as a gift to their adult child. However, firearms laws vary from state to state. You are best served by checking with your local authorities: State Department of Justice, Sheriff's Department Firearms Division, or similar Firearms Licensing Authorities for your area.

    While I understand your anxiousness, I urge you to hold off on your purchase until you turn twenty-one. Then you can buy your handgun for yourself. There is far more pride in doing it yourself and not having to rely on Mommy and Daddy to buy your toys for you. If you want a grown-up's toy then be a grown up about it. Be patient for a few more months. Impulsiveness is not the best trait to exhibit around handguns in any case.

    When you finally turn twenty-one march into that store with your money, look the clerk in the eye, point at the counter and say with confidence and pride what I said when I bought MY first handgun at twenty one, "I will take that one."
     
  12. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    Does anyone else see how this thread demonstrates just how ridiculous gun control laws are?

    Lupinus sounds like a responsible young man, wanting to do the right thing, and not wanting to get into trouble with the law. He might decide to forego getting a weapon as a result.

    The typical criminal doesn't care one bit about this, he will get his weapon by theft, or out of the trunk of some ghetto gun runner.

    My Dad is fond of saying: "locks are for honest folk". In the same vein, gun control laws only discourage the law abiding, and do nothing to stop criminal scum.
     
  13. AirForceShooter

    AirForceShooter Member

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    Florida allows you to privately purchase a hand gun if you're over 18, which you are.

    Not hard to do

    AFS
     
  14. Lupinus

    Lupinus Member

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    I think thats what I will likly end up doing AFS.

    Besides the fact it is less legal hoopla and the headaches (allbeit understandable if I put myself in the FFL's shoes with the crappy laws today) of a dealer who doesn't want to go through a loophole in the law that is legal but barly.

    Besides that it will likly be cheaper. One of the things I really want is a Sig and NIB them things are a little expensive for my price range so used might be the way to go.
     
  15. elliost

    elliost Member

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    Check you State Laws

    You can probably find the answer to your question simply by looking at your state's laws. You find your state's laws from a link at packing.org. In Texas you can posses a handgun at 18.
     
  16. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    I (for two) think this thread points out the ridiculous nature (perhaps rigidity is a better word) of the law. If a young adult is responsible, I don't think many parents (who own guns) would have a problem purchasing a firearm on their behalf even if it technically is a "straw purchase". Having a parent purchase a gun imposes another layer of security into the transaction. But, I believe the parent should have some responsibility as to the misuse of that firearm if it ever came to that prior to the minor turning 21. Call it a gift.... Now, if you hand the money to a 21 yr old buddy and say buy me that Glock.... that's a straw purchase; there is little difference with buying alcohol for minors except for the penalty of course. If the firearm is never used for criminal purposes, it really doesn't matter much. But, add a criminal act into the equation and you have a legal problem with both the parent and the minor. I'm no lawyer, but one needs to look at the spirit of the law as well as the actual wording of a law.

    I doubt the question would ever come up unless their is a criminal act involved. As was said, these rules are for the law abiding person and have little or no practical effect as to whether a criminal gets a gun on the street regardless of their age.
     
  17. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    Yep, my thoughts exactly :(
     
  18. entropy

    entropy Member

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    There is a grey area there. I have seen a person just under the legal age to buy for themselves come in and direct a parent which gun to buy for them. This is generally something I discourage, though in the instance of a hunting rifle or pistol, obviously some input by the person is required, if nothing else than to check stock fit or whether the caliber is appropriate. I remember one 16 or 17 year old kid kept coming in and fondling the AR-15 in the rack, came in with his Mom sometime after. From talking to him all those time he'd come in to fondle it, I knew he planned on going into the Army when he turned eighteen. She bought the rifle for him, although my boss was reluctant to sell it to her. He came in about a year later a lot thinner (he'd been kinda pudgy), and with that air of self confidence Basic instills in a young man. He stopped in to say thanks for selling to his Mom, it allowed him to achieve his dream of firing Expert and being very comfortable with his issue rifle. I in turn thanked him for his service, and wished him well in his time in the Army. He shipped out to Kuwait shortly after completeing AIT as an 11B. (This was during Desert Shield)
     
  19. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

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    Yeah, its a straw purchase. On the other hand a whole lot of kids get "their" first .22s at 15 the exact same way. It would be perfectly legal for your dad or a friend to purchase a gun and let you shoot it whenever you wanted, heck they could even store it in your bedroom. But, if you supply the money, and they fill out the paper work and transfer ownership to you, then it is against the letter of the law.
     
  20. Snagglepuss

    Snagglepuss Member

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    Isn't one of the first questions of the 4473, "Are you purchasing this gun for yourself?" or something like that. It your father says yes it seems like a done deal. You just figure out the other stuff, financing, when you get home. You will just be using your fathers gun until you are of age. Then you can transfer it legally. I am NO expert but this sounds alright to me. Please correct me if I am wrong, I want to learn.
     
  21. another okie

    another okie Member

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    If Daddy is buying the gun with intention of later transferring it to Junior as anything other than an outright gift you are taking a very big chance on a major federal crime. Paying Daddy back through chores is consideration and sounds like a straw purchase to me.

    The various people who are advising you about what their uncle in law enforcement said, or what the local police said, or what the state licensing agency said, are doing you a disservice.

    This is a federal crime and if you want a real answer, you would have to talk to the ATF directly or the local U.S. Attorney. Federal law enforcement often has little sense of discretion or tolerance and is perfectly willing to prosecute violations that might seem "technical" or "trivial" to most people.

    Given that the downside is so great, take no chances.
    Just wait until you are 21.
     
  22. joab

    joab Member

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    Or just simply actually read (front and back) that federal document that you sign when you buy a gun
     
  23. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    It truly isn't more complicated than that. It's a very simple issue. If you pay for the gun in ANY way, it's a straw purchase unless your name is on the yellow sheet. Period.

    Why does this cause so much confusion?

    If your parents are into guns, let them give it to you as a gift. If they won't, wait a year. Your "only" 20 and that means less than a year anyway.

    Save up more money and on your 21st birthday buy yourself something REALLY nice.
     
  24. Hawkmoon

    Hawkmoon Member

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    What "loophole" is that? Receiving a gun as a gift?

    That isn't a "loophole," it's a legally permitted action. And there's no such thing as "barely" legal. An action is legal ... or it isn't. The laws (misguided as they may be) provide that you may not, as a person not eligible to purchase a handgun from a dealer, have an eligible person buy the handgun for you using your money. If you do, that's a staw purchase. End of discussion.

    The law allows your parent, your uncle, or any adult legally entitled to purchase a handgun to do so WITH THEIR OWN MONEY and to subsequently give that gun to you. That's not a loophole, that's the law. There is no minimum time required before they can give the gun to you. The issue is that the gun must be purchased with THEIR money and given to you as a gift.

    Why is this hard to understand?
     
  25. Hawkmoon

    Hawkmoon Member

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    Keep in mind that your father has committed three straw purchases.
     
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