Would You Buy This Gun? [10mm Patrol Carbine]

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CmdrSlander

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Mosinfreak's thread about his Mosin-Nagant stocks has gotten good attention and feedback so I've decided to post a product idea that I've been working on for a while. I am not a gunsmith but I've discussed it with gunsmith friends, they say it would work after they got a process in place (tricky the first couple times, but then not too hard). If you're wondering why many parts (trigger/action are Savage, it is because they make quality standalone actions that my gunsmith friend is familiar with).


The Centimeter Patrol Carbine

There was a time when carrying a rifle and a pistol in the same, hard-hitting, caliber was easy and made a lot of since. This time has come again With the Centimeter Patrol Carbine, up to 15 rounds of 10mm power are at your disposal, served up as fast as you can cycle the buttery-smooth Savage action. Available in six distinct models, the Centimeter can fire from 10mm M1911 variant and Glock 20 magazines (different models required). An even more compact version of the great Jeff Cooper's Scout Rifle concept, the Centimeter features iron sights as well as a forward MIL-STD-1913 rail for optics. A perfect truck/car gun, the Centimeter is also a perfect companion for the camper. Easily kept in and handled in a patrol car, the Centimeter is also an excellent tool for Law Enforcement officers who need extra range and improved accuracy of carbine to dispatch a threat safely. With a thumbhole, Bone Gray laminate stock as standard and a folding polymer stock available (with dual pillar bedding standard on both) and a 16.5" button rifled stainless or blued barrel the Centimeter is a balanced and accurate package.

Specs and Pricing:

Model: Standard/1911
Capacity: 7+1
Barrel: Blued steel, 16.5" 1:16 RH twist
Action: Modified Savage Action w/ Standard bolt handle, sunray brushed bolt.
Caliber: 10mm Auto
Stock: Compact thumbhole laminate
Trigger: Match Grade Accutrigger
Sights: Scout Rail + Non-Illuminated Ghost Ring
Price: $850

Model: Ranger/1911
Capacity: 7+1
Barrel: Stainless, 16.5" 1:16 RH twist
Action: Modified Savage Action w/ Standard bolt handle, sunray brushed finish, receiver is stainless.
Caliber: 10mm Auto
Stock: Compact thumbhole laminate
Trigger: Match Grade Accutrigger
Sights: Scout Rail + Tritium Illuminated Ghost Ring
Price: $1000

Model: Enforcer/1911
Capacity: 7+1
Barrel: Stainless, 16.5" 1:16 RH twist, "Blacked Out" (matte black finish) threaded for AAC .40 Caliber suppressors
Action: Modified Savage Action w/ Oversized tactical bolt handle, matte black finish (stainless underneath)
Caliber: 10mm Auto
Stock: Folding Black (or Digital Camo) Polymer w/ side and forward rails (for lights, lasers)
Trigger: Match Grade Accutrigger
Sights: Scout Rail + Tritium Illuminated Ghost Ring
Price: $1450

Model: Standard/Glock
Capacity: 15+1
Barrel: Blued steel, 16.5" 1:16 RH twist
Action: Modified Savage Action w/ Standard bolt handle, sunray brushed bolt.
Caliber: 10mm Auto
Stock: Compact thumbhole laminate
Trigger: Match Grade Accutrigger
Sights: Scout Rail + Non-Illuminated Ghost Ring
Price: $850

Model: Ranger/Glock
Capacity: 15+1
Barrel: Stainless, 16.5" 1:16 RH twist
Action: Modified Savage Action w/ Standard bolt handle, sunray brushed finish, receiver is stainless.
Caliber: 10mm Auto
Stock: Compact thumbhole laminate
Trigger: Match Grade Accutrigger
Sights: Scout Rail + Tritium Illuminated Ghost Ring
Price: $1000

Model: Enforcer/Glock
Capacity: 15+1
Barrel: Stainless, 16.5" 1:16 RH twist, "Blacked Out" (matte black finish) threaded for AAC .40 Caliber suppressors
Action: Modified Savage Action w/ Oversized tactical bolt handle, matte black finish (stainless underneath)
Caliber: 10mm Auto
Stock: Folding Black (or Digital Camo) Polymer w/ side and forward rails (for lights, lasers)
Trigger: Match Grade Accutrigger
Sights: Scout Rail + Tritium Illuminated Ghost Ring
Price: $1450

So... Would you buy this gun? If so, which model?
 
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I would love to buy a 10mm carbine - but it would have to be a well though out gun, that actually handled well. No clumsy kits or conversions.

The 10mm MP5 that Was once offered by Vector as a pistol, 16" rifle, or SBR is just about perfect, but good luck finding one.

The Perfect 10mm carbine, In my mind, would be a dedicated pistol carbine based the Gock 20. Much like the Browning Buckmark carbine, but built by Glock. All it would need is a different frame, and a fixed barrel. Probably 50% of the existing G20 parts could be used in the built.
 
With a $850 starting price point, I think I'll pass. It's an interesting concept, but remember that the whole pistol-caliber carbine concept relies greatly on buyers already having a pistol chambered for the same cartridge. Though the 10mm is a great round, it's not super popular either. With the cult status of 10mm, this concept would be a niche product at best. Not having a 10mm myself, if I thought I needed a rifle like this, I think I'd opt for a Ruger .357 bolt-action at about $600.
 
About Pricing

Prices would go down as sales went up, once we could bulk purchase the actions and the 'smiths were salaried full time, the price would drop to around $500-$800. Our designs would allow .40 Caliber to be used in the Glock version as well (much like firing .357 and .38 Spc.)
 
Short answer, um.., no.

I have a 10mm Auto and I really like it. I understand what minuteman is talking about. I also have an M-4'gery chambered for 6.8SPC. Also sort of a niche cartridge but I digress. While having a carbine and pistol that may use the same ammunition and magazines sounds like a good idea, the way I see it, I can use different cartridges and platforms for different jobs.
 
For $850, probably not. For $1400, absolutely not! We live in a world now where good enough bolt guns start at $350, and you can configure them into a "scout gun" for less than $250 not including glass.

An Olympic Arms 10mm AR-15 starts at $700 if I recall correctly and takes Glock mags. I'm not quite sure why I would pay more for a bolt action version with the only advantage really being weight. If the gun could be sold for $500-$600, it may be worth looking at.
 
@Ranger

Yah, at least the first 75-100 rifles we'd make would have be total custom jobs, hand fitted, etc. The 'smith I know does superb work, he can scratch build 1911's and my god are they beautiful. All I'm saying is that for $1000 you are not buying a pricy production gun, you're buying a custom rifle.

Edit: High initial cost doesn't always equal doom, remember, the iPhone was $700 when it launched, now its $200 and still amazing. You want to charge the more for the early model so at least you break even if it fails.
 
Also, a Savage bolt assembly + accutrigger really only costs about $250, but they sell them for $600 to keep away the losers (and so they don't end up with rebranded Savage action based rifles everywhere.) You have to establish a relationship with Savage and have descent sales and not be a direct competitor (they wouldn't sell actions to Browning, Remington, etc.) to the get the fair/wholesale price.
 
No. The only 10mm carbines I would consider would be the 10mm MP5 or a Kriss Vector in 10mm, and either one would probably have to be an SBR too.
 
Well, it looks like my idea is universally loathed so...

I'll have to explain why I like the idea:

-Its a rifle you can shoot at a pistol range.
-Bolt actions are fun, and using a quality bolt gun is very satisfying and tactile.
-10mm Auto is a high enough velocity that benefits from the longer barrel would be noticeable.
-Gun grabbers (antis) wouldn't have any interest in it.
-Simple.
-Takes overpressure and underpressure loads very well, as there is no gas system to operate or blowback action to cycle.
-Accurate as all get-out.
-People buy 1894 lever guns for around $800 in pistol calibers.
-Niche caliber means easy niche market, if I released this, the 10mm community would notice.
-With the appropriate load, medium game can be humanely taken with this rifle.
-If anything, its cool and unique, take this baby to a range (and I have taken the prototype to my local range) and you will get a lot of questions.
-Easy to shoot, 10mm is a bit wily in a pistol but with the balance of a rifle, it kick's about as much as a .223 bolt gun.
 
I don't think anyone is against you making one of these for yourself, and our free market allows you to make them for sale (subject to FFL licensing, etc.) and see what the market is - but you might take this unscientific sample as an indication of potential demand if you do want to go the commercial route.
 
I'm not inexperienced at sales, and I believe that with an audience, a demo rifle, and 10 minutes I could sell them. (not to everyone of course, but 1 in 10 firearms enthusiasts in the audience seems about right to me)
 
I have zero experience with a 10mm and I'm not a gun newbe. I do like my 1894s/ Blackhawks and have the colt to add to my collection: I'd like to shoot one of your guns at the range, but my gun money would go elsewhere.

Having said that, go for it bro! We need more go get it done! JMB, Sam Colt, and Stoner all had to start somewhere! This is America and that's the spirit
 
bolt action?

Nope

Make something along the lines of a KelTec sub2000, mech-tech upper, or even a thompson variant ... but a bolt gun ... <ha!> ... no.

The sub2000 crowd is always clamoring for a 10mm or 7.62x25 variant - there's your market, the semiauto PCC guys.
 
If I had my own CNC-factory I'd make it a rotating bolt pump action.

I do not think it's a bad or unmarketable idea, but I'd prefer if you made an action (bolt or pump) from the ground up sized around the 10mm round. A 9mm version would be a great short range varmint/hare rifle.

A bolt action dimensioned for a round twice as big and twice as powerful might not be a big success, especially when you consider that your competition is already selling lighter semi-automatics for a low price (kel-tec sub 2000 in .40 S&W).

If you want to compete with that then you need to exploit the weaknesses of the sub 2000 design; it's ugly and made out of plastics.

Where I come from, the natural competitor would be a 9mm/.40/.45/10mm bolt action with a very slim and short receiver. As I said before, a 9mm bolt action with a silencer would make for very affordable plinking and small game hunting. If you want to try the water with a rifle based on a larger action, go for it.
 
I wouldn't, and I love 10mm. Got a G20 and a G29 and looking for a Smith 10xx.

If I got any conversion for the 10mm (and I'd use it on my G21 actually) it would be the .50GI conversion. That looks pretty cool, well made, and $1000 less. They make 'em for 1911's too.
 
A bolt action dimensioned for a round twice as big and twice as powerful might not be a big success, especially when you consider that your competition is already selling lighter semi-automatics for a low price (kel-tec sub 2000 in .40 S&W).
Click to expand...

I agree greatly with this. Putting a short autopistol round into even what's considered a "short" rifle action is a non-starter. 2-1/2" or 3" (or whatever) of bolt travel to chamber a 1-1/4" long cartridge is awkward at best. The action really needs to be scaled to the cartridge. Take a look at the Ruger 77/357 for inspiration.

To be a really "mature" system, worth putting out for sale, you'd need the gun to really fit the cartridge. I'd expect the bolt travel and ejection port to really fit the cartridge. That would be a super fast-working, light, compact action, and probably worth a look.

What you end up with should be a lot more like the Savage 93 .22 WMR action size, rather than their big centerfire rifles.
 
not popular round, more expensive to shoot than others. concept is valid, i just dont care for the cartridge.

sounds like agreat survival rifle, but once again ammo would be hard to find.
 
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