WWII British Lanchester carbine/submachine gun: refinish or not?

[ccoyle]

Hi. Apologies if this is not the best forum for this question; if not, moderators could you please move it? A member of another forum I belong to (non-firearms) has acquired an example of a WWII British Lanchester carbine/submachine gun, rendered non-functioning and legal to own in Britain. He has asked about refinishing the weapon (paint removal, including from some brass parts; refinishing the stock). First question is, should he do this, taking into consideration any historical or monetary value the weapon may have?

Thanks in advance!

 

[ilbob]

It is his property. he can do with it as he sees fit.

I have no idea how much it is worth in its current condition and what it might be worth in a refinished condition. If monetary value is what he is worried about, that would be where I would start looking.

I would also question if he has the skills to improve the value or not. it is a lot easier for an amateur to take value away from this kind of thing than it is to increase its value.

 

[ccoyle]

It is his property. he can do with it as he sees fit.

I understand that. But since this is a weapon that neither he nor I are familiar with, the question concerns whether he might be degrading the collector's value (either monetary or historical) of the piece by refinishing it. He originally asked about refinishing it, but I think it is worthwhile to know beforehand if the piece has significant value based on its current condition. BTW, he asked this question in a ship modeling forum, and the same rule of thumb applies to restoring ship models; models with historical value based on the subject, age, and artistic merit of the model can be substantially degraded if the model is refinished without taking those factors into consideration.

 

[Acera]

I think he should research it in his home country. A local shop that sells those toys might be a better source of information than a board in a different market that deals with functioning weapons.


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[Sunray]

There's a couple DEWAT Lanchesters on Collector's Source(Canadian.). Mag comes out but nothing else but the bolt moves. The metal is fairly decent with the brass being oxidized brass brown and little or no rust on the rest. Asking price is $1995.00Cdn. There's another that comes with the Pattern 1907 bayonet(worth over $100 itself) and is better condition on captainstevens.com(No idea, but he's another Canadian guy from B.C. selling Dewats), asking $2200Cdn.
As with any collector grade piece, doing anything to it will reduce its value. Mind you, DEWATs in general only have collector value in places like England and Canada where owning real MG's is far too evil.

 

[ccoyle]

I got some more info from the OP on the other forum. Apparently his Lanchester is modified to U.S. DEWAT standards, which I gather substantially reduces its value compared to UK/Canadian examples. Thanks for everyone's suggestions.

 

[entropy]

Since it's DEWAT'ed, he really can't hurt the value further.

 

[AlexanderA]

I got some more info from the OP on the other forum. Apparently his Lanchester is modified to U.S. DEWAT standards, which I gather substantially reduces its value compared to UK/Canadian examples.

Some further information is needed. The U.S. DEWAT (DEactivated WAr Trophy) program was a thing back in the 1950's (in any case, prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968), which allowed certain machine guns to be "deactivated" and sold as non-guns. In some cases, the deactivation was as simple as filling the barrel with molten lead, and breaking off or welding the firing pin -- changes which could easily be reversed. The GCA '68 required DEWATS to be registered just like live machine guns, and, since that time, many registered ones have been reactivated. The ones that were not registered during the 1968 amnesty are now contraband.

Where is the gun located? If not in the U.S., the U.S. DEWAT standards never applied, and if in the U.S., the gun better be registered or someone's potentially in a lot of trouble. An unregistered DEWAT in the U.S. has no value (or rather, a negative value since possession of it could send you to prison).

I suppose the receiver could be torch-cut into three pieces and the "DEWAT" turned into a "demil." But this is not something you would want to advertise to the world. Before doing the torch-cutting, you would be in possession of something that could be defined as a crime.

I suspect you are talking about a "demil" rather than a DEWAT. In other words, a display or dummy gun built using parts of a cut-up receiver with the gaps filled cosmetically with resin or some other soft material. The British-style "deactivation" is quite a bit more sophisticated than that, but still results in a destroyed gun.

 

[reddog81]

I have no experience in this type of refinish, but I'd strongly suspect the refinish would hurt the value. However that depends on the condition it is in currently.

You mention paint removal... Would that be paint that has been on the gun since WW2 or something that was done last year? Does he know of someone who is qualified to do the restoration? There are many factors that come into play. You can always refinish a gun a later date, but you can't easily undo a refinish gone wrong.

 

[Flynt]

I have no experience in this type of refinish, but I'd strongly suspect the refinish would hurt the value. However that depends on the condition it is in currently.

You mention paint removal... Would that be paint that has been on the gun since WW2 or something that was done last year? Does he know of someone who is qualified to do the restoration? There are many factors that come into play. You can always refinish a gun a later date, but you can't easily undo a refinish gone wrong.[/QUOTET

Two observations that might be useful:

First, check out the Lancaster display guns sold by International Military Antiques: http://www.ima-usa.com/militaria/original-machine-guns.html They're going for $400 or less, so that ought to provide a general sense of the gun's value.

Second, speaking of paint removal, I'd say it depends on what type of refinishing we're talking about. If it's a matter of studying the details of Lancasters and removing paint but repainting with black paint with the same look as the original, then that's one thing. If it's a matter of taking off paint and cold-bluing,then that's quiet another...Same with the wood. If it's a matter of sanding and shellacking ....

 

[AlexanderA]

The black paint on WW2 British military arms is "Suncorite," which is very tough and durable after being baked on, but is toxic (carcinogenic) while being applied. Special precautions are necessary, plus it's almost impossible to obtain today.

Underneath the paint, the British used a cheap bluing process like oil blackening or Dulite. That's the authentic finish, for example, for No. 4 Enfields. Parkerizing would be incorrect for British guns.