WWII History ? about England and Guns

[wky46]

I've heard my father state years ago that during WWII, Churchill made a plea to American citizens for their personal guns,(specifically hand guns and rifles) to help arm their people for the inevitable invasion from the Nazi's.
I've quoted this 'fact' before, using it as a fundamental argument for private ownership here in the U.S.

I have been recently called to question on this statement and have been asked to provide proof of this.
Well, I've googled this in a myriad of ways ie, "Churchill asks American Citizens......" Churchill makes plea....." England wants .........." etc.
Nothing. I guess it may be in one of his speeches that I've pulled up but he has a LOT of writings!
The question may have been answered in the previous England thread here but I'm too lazy too peruse all of that thread.

Does anyone here have any information on that or have my dad and I been wrong about this all these years?

.............

Phil

 

[NonConformist]

Before we agreed to Lend Lease arms to them they plead for people to send them arms IIRC, so id say you are right though I have no sources

Aftrwards our .mil supplied them to England

 

[JCMAG]

I've not heard this. There are a lot of these mysterious "quotations" from WW2. My favorite is the one of a Japanese general allegedly telling his emperor that an invasion of the U.S. mainland would be utterly impossible because there would be a rifle behind every bush and tree.

True or not, he was right. We nuked Japan for the same reasons.

I also find these quotes very interesting, very feasible, and I don't particularly doubt their truth. Odds are, they are coming from one of many, many books written on the subject where thousands of authors have studiously crawled through millions of pages of accounts and correspondences.

WW2 was huge and involved a lot of people. It also lent a lot of information. Your search will not be easy.

If you don't want to do some serious digging, I am certain that you can find a comparable case with Switzerland's protected neutrality in the war. That would be a much easier search, though perhaps less satisfying.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have no source for the actual request, but I have seen pictures of some of the small proportion of privately loaned guns that were returned to America instead of being scrapped in turn-ins. Some at least covered in American Rifleman. I have no doubt that it was done, but whether it was in an actual Churchill speech, I cannot say.

There is a period quotation from a Home Guard armed "... with a Pony Colt and three cartridges." Henry Stebbins said that one was a .32-20.

 

[Rio Laxas]

I believe there was an article in American Rifleman within the last six months that discussed it. I can't remember the specifics though.

 

[rbernie]

http://www.nra.org/aboutus.aspx

Halfway down:

Meanwhile, the NRA continued its commitment to training, education and marksmanship. During World War II, the association offered its ranges to the government, developed training materials, encouraged members to serve as plant and home guard members and developed training materials for industrial security. NRA members even reloaded ammunition for those guarding war plants. Incidentally, the NRA's call to help arm Britain in 1940 resulted in the collection of more than 7,000 firearms for Britain's defense against potential invasion by Germany (Britain had virtually disarmed itself with a series of gun control laws enacted between World War I and World War II).

http://www.nraila.org/media/misc/lostrts.html

World War II

After the fall of France and the Dunkirk evacuation in 1940, Britain found itself short of arms for island defense. The Home Guard was forced to drill with canes, umbrellas, spears, pikes, and clubs. When citizens could find a gun, it was generally a sporting shotgun Ð ill suited for military use because of its short range and bulky ammunition.


Prime Minister Winston Churchill inspecting a No. 4 Enfield which the British adopted after Dunkirk, because the rifle could be mass produced.

British government advertisements in American newspapers and in magazines such as The American Rifleman begged Americans to "Send A Gun to Defend a British HomeÐBritish civilians, faced with threat of invasion. desperately need arms for the defense of their homes." The ads pleaded for "Pistols, Rifles, Revolvers, Shotguns and Binoculars from American civilians who wish to answer the call and aid in defense of British homes."

Pro-Allied organizations in the United States collected weapons; the National Rifle Association shipped 7,000 guns to Britain. Britain also purchased surplus World War I Enfield rifles from America's Department of War.




Prime Minister Winston Churchill's book Their Finest Hour details the arrival of shipments of .300 caliber rifles and .75 caliber artillery pieces from the U.S. government in July 1940. Churchill personally supervised the deliveries to ensure that they were sent on fast ships and distributed first to Home Guard members in coastal zones. Churchill thought that the American donations were "entirely on a different level from anything we have transported across the Atlantic except for the Canadian division itself." Churchill warned his First Lord that "the loss of these rifles and field-guns would be a disaster of the first order."

"When the ships from America approached our shores with their priceless arms special trains were waiting in all the ports to receive their cargoes," Churchill recalled. "The Home Guard in every county, in every town, in every village, sat up all through the night to receive them.... By the end of July we were an armed nation.... a lot of our men and some women had weapons in their hands."

 

[wky46]

Thank You, Thank You, THANK YOU SIR !!!!
Printing it out now.

............

Phil

 

[Officers'Wife]

According to my grandfather the plea for arms from civilian sources was advertised in sport magazines. He had a letter from the king of England thanking Great-grandfather for his gift to the English home guard and promised that the weapons he had sent to England to be used by the Home Guard would be returned when the war was over with the king's gratitude.


The king lied.

Selena

 

[wky46]

Thanks Selena.
Oh! to have THAT magazine issue!

...........

Phil

 

[green country shooter]

Here's a link to a picture of the ad.

http://www.twinbuttebunch.org/index.php?fuseaction=misc.sendguns

 

[csmkersh]

Yes, England asked for and received gifts and loans of thousands of privately owned firearms. The Brits used these firearms to arm the home guard. After WWII, the vast majority of these arms were dumped in the North Sea.


​

 

[wky46]

Great link shooter.
Thanks all.

............

Phil

 

[Calibre44]

As World War II ended, the British government did what it could to prevent the men who had risked their lives in defense of freedom and Britain from holding onto guns acquired during the war. Troop ships returning to England were searched for souvenir or captured rifles, and men caught attempting to bring firearms home were punished. Guns that had been donated by American civilians were collected from the Home Guard and destroyed by the British government.

rbernie – great link – thanks.

I can’t vouch for exactly what happened to the firearms so graciously given by American families but I am sure that they were very gratefully received. Were they were dumped in the sea? – who knows? I can’t find any facts and figures to substantiate it. If this is true, and I don’t doubt that it probably is, then it is of course shameful but an action taken by the Gov not by its citizens. A lot of firearms however, were dropped in France to help the French Resistance so maybe a number of the firearms found themselves there where I’m sure they were put to good use.

I can validate the passage in the quote above though because it happened to by Father who fought in Burma against the Japanese in WWII. He told me that he had collected a number of ‘souvenirs’ along with many other men from his regiment (Royal Gloucestershire Regiment) but they were all ordered to throw them over board from the troop ship taking them home.

He had a great respect for American forces in WWII and like me, didn’t and won’t forget the debt we in Britain and the rest of Europe owe to the sacrifices paid by so many for our freedom. Sadly my Father he’s no longer with us, (died four years ago) but I have his medals proudly displayed next to my gun-safe. They sit next to a plague awarded to my Grandfather for being ‘mentioned in dispatches’ after rescuing a wounded officer whilst under heavy fire in WWI.

Here is the only pic I have of him from his time in Burma.
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Thanks once again

 

[Mk VII]

Edward Hulton (1906-1988) was a wealthy proprietor of several magazines, including Picture Post, noted for its photo-journalism (modelled on U.S. Life magazine) and its Left-leaning stance. Highly influential on magazine design in its day, the magazine’s photo archive lives on, currently owned by Getty Images.

H. Wickham Steed (1871-1956) was a journalist, a European correspondent for the London Times before 1914 and briefly edited the paper in the 1920s. He was a strong critic of Hitler and of the appeasement policy pursued in the ‘30s.

‘Lord Davies’ is probably Baron Davies of Llandinam (1880-1944). He had been a secretary to Lloyd George and later the Liberal MP for Montgomeryshire. He was a strong supporter of the League of Nations and the temperance movement, and was also a critic of the appeasement policy.

Each weapon arrived with two labels tied to it indicating it's origin and donor. Recipients were asked to write a letter of thanks, at the same time giving the impression that the arms had been distributed to individuals rather than to official organisations. Not surprisingly few of these labels survive (no one was going to go around with a big label tied to his gun) and only one set of the two, on a real dog of a .32 pistol currently in the School of Infantry Museum.
The huge variety of types and calibres must have been a real headache and a barrier to any active use, although some types (e.g. 110 Thompson SMGs) would have been easily incorporated into the national stock. Some types of .38s had the cylinders reamed out to take the .380 Mk.IIz service cartridge. Other types donated, such as Trapdoor Springfields, must have been of very little military value and were simply scrapped or dumped at sea at the end of the war.
SOE was anxious to acquire European pocket pistols of demonstrably non-British origin and it is possible that some arms may have been passed to them for distribution in Europe. No records appear to exist of their disposition at the end of the war. One domestic donor, told to report to a warehouse at Barnstaple to collect his gun, found a huge pile of arms mixed promiscuously on the floor. After a short search it was obviously impossible to locate his gun so he settled for a similar type and left with it.

 

[wky46]

My intention in posting this thread was never intended to belittle England in any way or to smuggly behave that our way is the better way.
I just felt it was a good analogy to what could happen here.

Our way is our way.
Englands way is well... none of my business!

Thanks everyone and especially the great stories

.........

Phil

 

[John-Melb]

I hadn't heard of the SOE seeking European pocket pistols for issue but it certainly makes sense. I had heard that the various resistance groups in Europe prefered autos to revolvers as they were more familiar and easily concealed.

On another note, use and even issue of non-standard arms was fairly common. There's a picture of Australian's at Gona and one is clearly using a M1 Garand. I know Australian commandos in the Pacific often carried Lugers as they took the same ammunition as the Owen gun. There is one recorded case of an officer with an infantry battalion using an MP40 in New Guinea, he had "acquired" it in North Africa when it's previous owner had no further use for it. I'd like to know where it is now.