Ye old "Federal Brass is SOFT" question

[Rule3]

Can anyone point to a recent study on "brass softness) and/or primer pocket test that actually PROVES that the brass is somehow "soft"?

I mean a statically valid, scientific PROOF that this a a fact??

One that shows if it is all Federal Brass or perhaps just 308 or 556?? Are handgun calibers OK

At what pressures does it become evident that it is soft or primer pockets get loose??

Not anecdotal statements.

A search of the Universe shows that some say yes, some no, some calibers, some pressures etc.

(bds here is a real myth buster for YOU!)

 

[Stumper]

I am not prepared to state that "all Federal brass is soft". I can say with confidence that in some calibers and lots I have worked with it has been "softer" than many other brands. I have never found this difference in any way problematic, merely distinguishable to a small degree.

 

[Slamfire]

I don't have a hardness tester, I am not going to section a case and try to determine hardness because I already know, that the Federal rifle cases I have, and have used, the pockets open up before other brands. I picked up coffee cans of 223 Federal match from the service rifle teams at Camp Perry, the stuff only lasts for two to three more reloads before primers fall out of loaded rounds. I have had a similar experience with 308 and 30-06.

 

[cfullgraf]

My experience mirrors Slamfire's on rifle cases. The little number of Federal rifle cases, predominately 308 Win, some reformed to 6.5x54 Mauser, that I have used did not last as many cycles as other cases.

I cannot say that I have seen short case life with handgun cases such as 357 Magnum or 45 ACP. I had several hundred 357 Magnum cases in service in the early 1980s, most are probably still mixed in with my other 357 Magnum cases. I still have a couple hundred 357 Magnum cases, circa 1980, that are new, trimmed, and prepped ready to load when I want to load some full power loads again.

I cannot say that I have ever seen a study relating the softness of Federal cases versus other brands. That does not mean it is not out there.

 

[LiveLife]

One that shows if it is all Federal Brass or perhaps just 308 or 556??

At what pressures does it become evident that it is soft or primer pockets get loose?

I think there are too many variables that's at play to isolate testing for brass "hardness" or "softness" as you would need to start out with new brass in each headstamp. But even if we obtained measurable data for new brass, since most of us do not use new brass, how much of it will it translate to used brass shot under different conditions (powder/charge and chamber, etc.)?

bds here is a real myth buster for YOU!

Until I pick up some sensitive/precision measuring equipment, I am limited to conducting measurable and repeatable tests using equipment I have on hand.

Are handgun calibers OK?

I am conducting tests for brass case wall thickness and neck tension/bullet setback in preparation for the Mother Of All Bullets thread.

I am trying to identify the brass that experiences no/least amount of bullet setback as I figure more consistent bullet seating depth will help with consistency of chamber pressures for accuracy testing.

 

[someguy2800]

On the 3rd reloading of my federal 26-06 brass 50% of them got thrown away because the primers will fall out if you tap them on the table. The other 50% are so loose I put them in a separate box labeled "practice rounds" to make sure I don't accidentally take them hunting and they will all be junk after the next firing as well. My winchester brass still feels like they are new on the 6th loading. My father in law gave me 300 270 win cases to reload. They were all from factory federal ammo and never reloaded. About 20% went in the trash because the primer pockets were loose on cases that had never been reloaded! Proof enough for me.

 

[LiveLife]

Rule3, there you go. someguy2800 provided one set of data.

 

[243winxb]

At what pressures does it become evident that it is soft or primer pockets get loose??

Copied from Olin brass website a few years ago. I have no idea how it would pertain to a cartridge.

modulus of elasticity- Cartridge Brass-
Material is 70 copper/30 zinc with trace amounts of lead & iron , called C26000. Material starts to yield at 15,000 PSI when soft (annealed), and 63,000 PSI when hard.
Material yields, but continues to get stronger up to 47,000 PSI when soft, and 76,000 PSI
when work hardened. Modulus of Elasticity is 16,000,000 PSI. This means to pull a 1.000 inch long strip to 1.001 inch long induces a 16,000 PSI stress.
So if you pull a 1.000 inch strip to 1.005 inch long, you get about 76,000 PSI, which is the max obtainable.

The web thickness on some Federal 223 brass was an issue years ago. It was on AR15.com There was a way to measure it, with photos. Cant find it now.

Using hot 5.56 data may be an issue also? http://www.accuratepowder.com​

 

[Rule3]

Rule3, there you go. someguy2800 provided one set of data.

I will work on pistol brass data in the "Myth Busting Neck Tension and Bullet Setback" thread with focus on primer pocket getting loose.

I am not saying what he wrote is not "fact" But it is the same as the rest of the entire internet. It is "anecdotal" and provides no "data" and is not scientific fact. (no offense meant at all)

I realize that actual testing is very difficult and expensive but 50% of what? What charge? just that caliber??

Why is Lake City Brass so wonderful, but FC stamped is not?

Old Federal brass vs Newer brass? Is LC made the same as Federal NATO stuff. different plants but how much different is it. Etc etc.

How long will my Federal 9mm or 45 ACP last compared to sat Winchester or any other. ?

Not going to debate the same stuff over and over, If someone has actual data than fine.

 

[Rule3]

Copied from Olin brass website a few years ago. I have no idea how it would pertain to a cartridge.

The web thickness on some Federal 223 brass was an issue years ago. It was on AR15.com There was a way to measure it, with photos. Cant find it now.

Using hot 5.56 data may be an issue also? http://www.accuratepowder.com​

Yes I think I read a post by "UncleNick" on that

 

[LiveLife]

Why is Lake City Brass so wonderful, but FC stamped is not?

Likely military contract having to meet certain mil spec requirements.

FC and newer .FC. with dots, no such requirements.

How long will my Federal 9mm or 45 ACP last compared to Winchester or any other?

Quite a bit.

Several years ago I did a test where I kept reloading same batch of 9mm brass to see if primer pocket got loose or case necks split using 124 gr RN and 4.0 gr Promo. After 10 reloadings, I stopped as there were many other variables I did not factor (not all of them were once-fired for one) to "taint" the testing and resulting data.

Most brass performed comparable as to primer pocket getting loose. Only few got loose enough for primer to fall out and they were all 111 (People's Republic of China). Some of the brass produced less resistance when seating primers but they were mixed in headstamp so no single brand stood out.

This was poorly run subjective test and for me to do it objectively, I need to use new brass.

 

[Slamfire]

I realize that actual testing is very difficult and expensive but 50% of what? What charge? just that caliber??

Why is Lake City Brass so wonderful, but FC stamped is not?

Old Federal brass vs Newer brass? Is LC made the same as Federal NATO stuff. different plants but how much different is it. Etc etc.

These are all good questions. I am not going to spend the time and effort finding the answers for you. If it is important enough, to you, you will.

 

[Nature Boy]

On the 3rd reloading of my federal 26-06 brass 50% of them got thrown away because the primers will fall out if you tap them on the table. The other 50% are so loose I put them in a separate box labeled "practice rounds" to make sure I don't accidentally take them hunting and they will all be junk after the next firing as well. My winchester brass still feels like they are new on the 6th loading. My father in law gave me 300 270 win cases to reload. They were all from factory federal ammo and never reloaded. About 20% went in the trash because the primer pockets were loose on cases that had never been reloaded! Proof enough for me.

Why is it that I find the opposite to be true. .308 Win brass, either commercial or WWC NATO, will develop loose pockets long before my Fed commercial or NATO brass. As a matter of fact, commercial Win brass starts out with larger pockets so that might play a part.

I measure my pockets with pin gages.

 

[someguy2800]

Why is it that I find the opposite to be true. .308 Win brass, either commercial or WWC NATO, will develop loose pockets long before my Fed commercial or NATO brass. As a matter of fact, commercial Win brass starts out with larger pockets so that might play a part.

I measure my pockets with pin gages.

Don't know. I've shot many many LC 5.56 brass that were prepped and sorted for precision and loaded many times and I never had to cull any of those due to loose primer pockets even when loaded rather hot. It seams unlikely to me that the military contract brass is produced using the same processes, materials, and equipment as there commercial ammo but that is a baseless assumption. I don't think one can universally say all brass made by Federal is soft, but there is definitely basis for people to say it often is.

As to what cartridges is this a problem with, its unlikely this would ever be an issue except in high intensity rifle cartridges. The common pistol calibers and low pressure rifles like a 30-30 are probably not generating enough pressure to yield the case heads.

 

[Patocazador]

I make .44 Auto Mag cases by cutting off and reaming cases from .30-06, .270, etc. I don't use Federal cases because the shell holder pulls the rim off when extracting it from the reamer die. To me that indicates a substandard case. The toughest cases I've tried are Frontier and Remington. Winchesters sometimes mess up but Federals always do.

 

[Rule3]

These are all good questions. I am not going to spend the time and effort finding the answers for you. If it is important enough, to you, you will.

I never asked you to.

All the so called answers are out on the web, There are many many of them.

 

[Rule3]

Here is a post from "Uncle Nick" on the Firing Line 2015. He has a bit of cred in his knowledge. Much like rcmodel does here

"Primer pockets from the major manufacturers are ±0.0004" or ±0.0005". Primers themselves are likewise with tolerances of about half a thousandth. 0.01746" to 0.1751" is the standard range, however, they can be out of round by up to another half thousandth, and if you measured the longer dimension you might be confused by what the dimension actually is. Also, the average person using a caliper cannot get an accurate measurement this fine, and an OD thimble micrometer has to be used. Caliper measurements can err up to two thousandths fairly easily at the hands of those without tool room experience. Federal primers are among the easiest seating primers in any size, so the idea that they are several thousandths oversize is not remotely feasible.


The issue with Federal brass is that it is "low brass" of 80 parts copper to 20 parts zinc. So is Remington brass, by the way, but it is work-hardened more than Federal. Federal has found that softer brass improves accuracy by allowing pressure to self-center the brass more freely in the chamber, so they do this on purpose. Their primary objective is accuracy, not reloadiablility. The problem experienced by some shooters with this is that if they load to their rifles to near peak pressure limits, and at those pressure Federal brass can expand too much to be reloaded again. Indeed, some Federal factory ammunition in Magnum chamberings has been found to eject with the primer already falling out of the case, as the case head has expanded beyond the normal tolerance range at that magnum pressure.

That same softness, however, has an advantage. It doesn't harden and split as easily as some other brass. The trick is to avoid loading federal brass all the way to maximum pressures. If you just use it at moderate pressures, it lasts a long time and works very well. In pistol brass, as long as you are using a chambering that is not extremely high pressure, Federal brass is really great. It seems to tolerate resizing an almost unlimited number of times. I have personally reloaded both Winchester and Federal cases over 50 times in .45 ACP loaded to target pressures. This was Winchester brass from the 1980's, before outsourcing was so common. I can't speak to how it holds up today. It was genuine 70% copper, 30% zinc cartridge brass back then."
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[Slamfire]

Here is a post from "Uncle Nick" on the Firing Line 2015. He has a bit of cred in his knowledge. Much like rcmodel does here

The issue with Federal brass is that it is "low brass" of 80 parts copper to 20 parts zinc. So is Remington brass, by the way, but it is work-hardened more than Federal. Federal has found that softer brass improves accuracy by allowing pressure to self-center the brass more freely in the chamber, so they do this on purpose. Their primary objective is accuracy, not reloadiablility. The problem experienced by some shooters with this is that if they load to their rifles to near peak pressure limits, and at those pressure Federal brass can expand too much to be reloaded again. Indeed, some Federal factory ammunition in Magnum chamberings has been found to eject with the primer already falling out of the case, as the case head has expanded beyond the normal tolerance range at that magnum pressure.

Uncle Nick is a smart guy, and I am glad you found your answer.

 

[Blue68f100]

There are currently around 6-10 different brass alloys used in making firearm brass. Each has it's own particular properties. Then you have the mfg process which is not the same from mfg to mfg and may not be the same between plants the mfg runs. I've seen good and bad from the same mfg. As far as primers go there is a tollerance on those that can make a loose primer tight depending own who you use. It could also be that the web is thinner at the base for those that loosen up just after a few firings. I have some old 308W brass that is still good after 40 yrs. I will also add if your start measuring the wall thickness of brass you may find it all over the place. Example: I have some Fed 308 Brass that has a 0.016"-0.0175" wall thickness, and some that runs 0.014". The thinner brass will fail long before the thicker brass. This is due to the heavier wall is not yielded as much, not being over stressed. Where I use to work I had access to all kinds of metallurgical equipment, that would make it easy to determine the hardness. Been retired now for 20+ yrs so I no longer have access and the lab got closed down during a buy out.

 

[hdwhit]

Rule3 quoting UncleNick from Thefiringline.com wrote:
The issue with Federal brass is that it is "low brass" of 80 parts copper to 20 parts zinc.

Assuming that UncleNick was correct that at some time Federal used brass that was 80/20 copper/zinc instead of the near-universal 70/30, I would not bet my house on that statement being applicable to all Federal products today.

 

[hdwhit]

Rule3 asked:
Can anyone point to a recent study on "brass softness) and/or primer pocket test that actually PROVES that the brass is somehow "soft"?

I mean a statically valid, scientific PROOF that this a a fact??

No.

Recent or otherwise, I don't think anyone is going to be able to point to such a study because outside of the manufacturer's quality control or research laboratories there is no reason to conduct such a test nor is there any reason to publicize the results of any such testing that was done.

Even if such a study had been done and I had access to a copy of it, I wouldn't be inclined to share it. True or not, Federal brass has a reputation for being "soft" that makes it undesirable for reloading. As a result, Federal headstamp brass sells at significant discounts compared to other, more highly favored cases. People will send me Federal crimped 223 brass for little more than the price of shipping; brass I know to have been once-fired because of the crimped primer and which I know will be "lost to the weeds" before it's supposed softness would play a role in its performance. I wouldn't want to remove the taint from Federal brass that keeps it cheap.

 

[mjsdwash]

I cant, but as a handloader I can tell you federal primer pockets are a lot easier to prime, and the necks split about 3 loads sooner than most of the others. I know a lot of loaders will tell you the same. I only use their 5.56 brass though. I have had a few head separations, and its always them. I don't mind, I use them just the same, and they do last several loadings. I will not stop using it, but I did lower my load, and have had zero issues since, reloading federal cases many times over. They are actually my favorite loaded ammo manufacturer.

 

[murf]

here ya go: http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/x-ray-spectrometry-of-cartridge-brass/

apparently, lower zinc content equates to "softer" brass.

"softness" is an opinion so there shouldn't be any "experiments". hardness is a measurement and so i'd think a hardness experiment would be easier to find. easier still, get a hardness tester, see for yourself and then form your opinion.

luck,

murf

 

[Rule3]

here ya go: http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/x-ray-spectrometry-of-cartridge-brass/

apparently, lower zinc content equates to "softer" brass.

"softness" is an opinion so there shouldn't be any "experiments". hardness is a measurement and so i'd think a hardness experiment would be easier to find. easier still, get a hardness tester, see for yourself and then form your opinion.

luck,

murf

Thanks for the link.

Well......
At least it is a attempt at using some scientific methods. But as you say "softness" vs hardness

Doesn't address the "how" long it will last or how many reloads"

Just those individual lots (2009) and that caliber.

Remington is pretty darn close to that batch of Federal so can we conclude that Remington (2009) is no good either? or is that because it is to thin?

OH well everyone know Federal Primers are great and soft and sensitive.

No ne has a Mass Spec or X ray unit here on the forum????

Need to send some to Abby Sciuto or Forensic Files

Actually the data shown doesn't reveal much. Even in the article it says:

"We do NOT have the metallurgical expertise to infer that any particular alloy shown above is “better” than another. The alloy “blend” is merely one of many variables that can have an impact on the performance and quality of the finished product. Annealing times/methods differ and some cartridge brass is extruded while other cartridge brass is made with the traditional drawing process. Readers should not presume, on reading the above chart, that they can identify the “best shooting” brass simply based on the constituent metals in the various alloys."

and:

Editor: That said, the ‘brown box’ 6mmBR Lapua brass, with 62% copper/36% zinc content, enjoys an unrivaled reputation for both accuracy and its ability to perform well after a dozen or more reloading cycles. We know 30BR shooters who have shot the same old-style Lapua brass (6mmBR parent case) more than 50 times. So maybe the “expert” view needs re-thinking.]

 

[Reeferman]

Can anyone point to a recent study on "brass softness) and/or primer pocket test that actually PROVES that the brass is somehow "soft"?

I mean a statically valid, scientific PROOF that this a a fact??

One that shows if it is all Federal Brass or perhaps just 308 or 556?? Are handgun calibers OK

At what pressures does it become evident that it is soft or primer pockets get loose??

Not anecdotal statements.

A search of the Universe shows that some say yes, some no, some calibers, some pressures etc.

(bds here is a real myth buster for YOU!)

I can’t comment on Federal rifle brass but I have 38/357 and 44 mag brass that I have I’ve lost count on how many times they have been reloaded. The 38 ones have all light target loads but the 357 and 44 mag ones have been loaded mid to top end and so far no issues. That’s as scientific as I can get.