gotigers, depends on the target, but I'd consider something in the 1/2-3/4 MOA range something at least competitive in Service Rifle matches. I've seen a lot of ARs shoot in the 2-3MOA range. Not bad and certainly good enough to put someone down at distance, just not group sizes that I'd like to hang on the wall.
yes another AR question
- Thread starter sola7
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1stmarine
Member
What is the purpose?
You need a short and light good defense carbine?
Do you want something for hunting / target that is not very heavy?
Do you want something super accurate that can shoot the best .224 bullets?
Before you decide on a system decide what bullets you want to shoot, what
distance, what purpose. How you can get the most fun is what should drive your
purchase and not just the cost. There are plenty of good quality entry ARs out there
but many configurations. if you do not want 20" but want a bit more speed 18" could be a good compromise.
I am telling you because I have 7 lowers and 17 uppers and I end up using only 2 or 3 most of the time. The rest are catching dust most of the year.
You need a short and light good defense carbine?
Do you want something for hunting / target that is not very heavy?
Do you want something super accurate that can shoot the best .224 bullets?
Before you decide on a system decide what bullets you want to shoot, what
distance, what purpose. How you can get the most fun is what should drive your
purchase and not just the cost. There are plenty of good quality entry ARs out there
but many configurations. if you do not want 20" but want a bit more speed 18" could be a good compromise.
I am telling you because I have 7 lowers and 17 uppers and I end up using only 2 or 3 most of the time. The rest are catching dust most of the year.
+1 for building. I bought both mine and the wife's rifles complete, and was kind of unhappy with it all until I sold the wife's upper and started piecing it all together. I haven't got all the parts yet, but it will be a nice rifle when I get done.
Cop Bob
Member
As far as the Wife is conserned, I have a solution for you... Mine gave me the same speech...
"You spend too da*% much money on guns!", my reply was simple... Yes dear, but this is my chosen hobby... If you don't want me to collect guns, then I can always go to drinking and chasing women". I never heard another word, and it has been years....
As far as AR's I'm following this thread too... Getting ready to build me one.. and beginning to understand why that Oly in my safe has NEVER been right... Beginning to wonder if it is even work slapping another upper onto it...
"You spend too da*% much money on guns!", my reply was simple... Yes dear, but this is my chosen hobby... If you don't want me to collect guns, then I can always go to drinking and chasing women". I never heard another word, and it has been years....
As far as AR's I'm following this thread too... Getting ready to build me one.. and beginning to understand why that Oly in my safe has NEVER been right... Beginning to wonder if it is even work slapping another upper onto it...
sixgunner455
Member
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- Aug 25, 2006
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Depending on the lower, cop bob, it might not be worth putting another upper onto. Especially when you can get a stripped upper for ~$100, sometimes less, that will be milled to spec, and you can then install whatever trigger is appropriate for your new upper and its intended use.
sansone
Member
olympic will do fine for you. They had a bad reputation MANY years ago because they tried casting receivers briefly to save money on their economy models. They have been using only forged receivers for a good many years now.
Truthfully I have not seen a bad US made AR for a long time. The common well known domestic companies all take care of you if there is a problem, and most likely you won't have a problem with a new gun. Used opens a whole new can of worms unless you know the previous owner has done right with it.
I will say the most important part to me is barrel quality because unlike AK's an AR can shoot sub moa with a good tube.
..just my 2 cents worth, you can keep the change ..LOL
Truthfully I have not seen a bad US made AR for a long time. The common well known domestic companies all take care of you if there is a problem, and most likely you won't have a problem with a new gun. Used opens a whole new can of worms unless you know the previous owner has done right with it.
I will say the most important part to me is barrel quality because unlike AK's an AR can shoot sub moa with a good tube.
..just my 2 cents worth, you can keep the change ..LOL
kwelz
Member
Sanesone sorry but you are incorrect. Oly is still making bad guns. Yes the cast business was a great example of the junk they put out but while they use forgings now they still do a lot wrong.
And there are a number of BAD us AR makers. DPMS, Oly, Hesse, Doublestar. All of these are examples of companies that should be avoided. even for "plinkers"
Also incorrect. A good quality AK will shoot 1MOA easily.
And there are a number of BAD us AR makers. DPMS, Oly, Hesse, Doublestar. All of these are examples of companies that should be avoided. even for "plinkers"
Also incorrect. A good quality AK will shoot 1MOA easily.
1stmarine
Member
...Oh boy! AR vs AK again....
An AR capable of MOA is a heavy barrel. An AR capable of 1/2MOA is a heavy barrel match grade. I have been playing and working with AKs for years and an AK capable of MOA is a Saiga .308win in 16". The dragunov doesn't come close. The other that can come close to the MOA (but not achieve it )is a customized version of the M72 RPK that some eastern folks cut and customized for a DM role due to the beefed up trunnions and barrels. Same thing with some of the VEPRs from the molot plant.
No AK in 7.62x54R, 7.63x39 or 5.45x39 round is close to a consistent MOA system or anyway comes close to a good AR in terms of accuracy and do not even bring up a match grade AR but in reality the AK doesn't needs to be. The role doesn't require that. It has other benefits. Otherwise you would see them in the leagues and high power accuracy competitions all the time. Where you see them is in battle or the 2-3 gun matches, shooting relentlessly refusing to stop. I love ARs and AKs too. Bolt, lever, pump, whatever... they all have a role.
If you are on a budget this is what I would do:
- get a SI-D, sun devil or similar billet.
- Get a DTI, RRA(non-chromed), Spikes, or similar kit (given that serves your purpose) and put the DTI M16 BCG on it. Get an adjustable gas block and have the system spit the brass at 4 o'clock and go and have thousands of rounds of enjoyment. the upper assembly is going to come assembled, properly headspaced and ready to go with those guys.
I said non-chromed in case you want more accuracy vs. less barrel life. In the end the barrel swap is a small % of cost vs. the cost of all the ammo you need to burn one.
Seriously, get a nice billet even if it is w.o any brands on it and think what you need and/or want under the hood.
An AR capable of MOA is a heavy barrel. An AR capable of 1/2MOA is a heavy barrel match grade. I have been playing and working with AKs for years and an AK capable of MOA is a Saiga .308win in 16". The dragunov doesn't come close. The other that can come close to the MOA (but not achieve it )is a customized version of the M72 RPK that some eastern folks cut and customized for a DM role due to the beefed up trunnions and barrels. Same thing with some of the VEPRs from the molot plant.
No AK in 7.62x54R, 7.63x39 or 5.45x39 round is close to a consistent MOA system or anyway comes close to a good AR in terms of accuracy and do not even bring up a match grade AR but in reality the AK doesn't needs to be. The role doesn't require that. It has other benefits. Otherwise you would see them in the leagues and high power accuracy competitions all the time. Where you see them is in battle or the 2-3 gun matches, shooting relentlessly refusing to stop. I love ARs and AKs too. Bolt, lever, pump, whatever... they all have a role.
If you are on a budget this is what I would do:
- get a SI-D, sun devil or similar billet.
- Get a DTI, RRA(non-chromed), Spikes, or similar kit (given that serves your purpose) and put the DTI M16 BCG on it. Get an adjustable gas block and have the system spit the brass at 4 o'clock and go and have thousands of rounds of enjoyment. the upper assembly is going to come assembled, properly headspaced and ready to go with those guys.
I said non-chromed in case you want more accuracy vs. less barrel life. In the end the barrel swap is a small % of cost vs. the cost of all the ammo you need to burn one.
Seriously, get a nice billet even if it is w.o any brands on it and think what you need and/or want under the hood.
kwelz
Member
Not true at all. I can shoot 2/4MOA with my Noveske N4 barrel. Others can do better. it is neither heavy nor a match grade barrel.
What do I, or should I, care about MOA? I can hit what I am aiming at out to 600m, laser verified.
1stmarine
Member
You should care bout MOA if you care about it. If you can hit what you are shooting at 600 yards then you should be more than ok, I would imagine, unless you are talking about a bus size target.
Moa means you do not care about something smaller than roughly 6"x6" and that is perfectly understandable, not just for the little AR round but by any standards. No hunting at 600 cannot be anything serious for the AR round. Then if it is at some small varmint that is when you should care about MOA I mean not you specifically but in general.
Moa means you do not care about something smaller than roughly 6"x6" and that is perfectly understandable, not just for the little AR round but by any standards. No hunting at 600 cannot be anything serious for the AR round. Then if it is at some small varmint that is when you should care about MOA I mean not you specifically but in general.
1stmarine
Member
Obviously there are exceptions as any good AR can be very accurate with an specific load. Could you provide information about the barrel characteristics and some pictures of targets/loads? many folks like me to see how the groups look like. When you meition 2/4 moa you mean 1/2inch? 5 shots?
Thanks.
SB_Outdoorsman
Member
Olympic Arms AR-15 is specifically banned by name in California, not to mention its not the considered on of the better names in the business when it comes to ARs. Here is a link to a flowchart that goes into detail about the whole CA AWB and what you can buy and can't http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf. Basically if its on the list its banned, there are some exceptions with the Colts but just make sure to get yourself a rifle with an Off-List Lower to avoid any headaches.
There are plenty of place that sell Rifle kits without the lowers for less than $600. You could always buy a stripped or complete lower and then take the build from there after finding exactly what upper and stock setup you want.
There are plenty of place that sell Rifle kits without the lowers for less than $600. You could always buy a stripped or complete lower and then take the build from there after finding exactly what upper and stock setup you want.
1stmarine
Member
Good advice. That is why I suggested sun-devil or SI-D... great billets.
Sorry I should clarify that. The shots were on a IPSC torso target using a 3.5x ACOG. And I would never make that shot in a hunting environment. Too many things to go wrong at that range. I know some folks love to make one ragged hole a X distance and that is fine. If that is what makes you happy than by all means go for it. But I would not get wrapped up in MOA. Sure I want my rifle to be as accurate as it can be, and my AR is, but I am not going to lose sleep if it is a 2 MOA rifle rather than a 1 MOA. As long as the shooter knows their rifle and knows their holds then you should have no problems.
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1stmarine
Member
you speak wise words, knowing your system si to sometimes to sleep with it!!! I see folks going bang bang bang and do not even know where they are hitting 99.9% of the time. even at only 100 or 200 yards.
Home-built
DD upper receiver
DD BCG
Citadel ($100 gun show trade, yikes) 20 inch
1:9 floated lightweight barrel
Bushmaster lower w/ RRA 2-stage trigger
100yds in hot, windy conditions
Weaver 1-3x scope.
Three-shot groups (yeah, I know) .33 and .615
77 SMK ahead of 24.5gr Varget
M
P.S. Oly makes fine barrels, just forget the rest of the rifle.
DD upper receiver
DD BCG
Citadel ($100 gun show trade, yikes) 20 inch
1:9 floated lightweight barrel
Bushmaster lower w/ RRA 2-stage trigger
100yds in hot, windy conditions
Weaver 1-3x scope.
Three-shot groups (yeah, I know) .33 and .615
77 SMK ahead of 24.5gr Varget
M
P.S. Oly makes fine barrels, just forget the rest of the rifle.
Attachments
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1stmarine
Member
nice! like the cammo.. very civilized! lol!
Love 3 shot groups in rapid fire.
Love 3 shot groups in rapid fire.
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kwelz
Member
Sorry that was supposed to be 3/4 MOA. Was typing fast.
Ammo was T.A.P. I have never taken a photo of my targets. I am not a target shooter and never saw the point to it. And yes 5 shots.
By the way that is not the exception. You will find plenty of examples of Noveske rifles getting far better accuracy than this. And I am sure mine could shoot better. I am the limiting factor.
1stmarine
Member
T.A.P. great loads so if you barrel likes them stick to them. very effective with white tail, pigs and even black bear.
The accuracy of any good AR can be better and I am pretty sure there are other examples. The fact is that if noveske M4 barrels would be extraordinarily accurate consistently then we would see them in any match firing line but they are not there.
Krieger, Lilja, Lothar Walter, Shilen are some of the most popular ones.
No dobut noveske use nice barrels and are great systems.
Also you might not see the need to take a snapshots of your targets, I respect that, but when you make any accuracy claims in a forum do not be surprised if fellow thread followers want to see pictures and learn more about the details and actual experience.
.223 wylde RRA NM
DTI 16"HB ML no chrome (M16 BCG)
6x45 Lothar Walter upper
5 shot group (4 inside 1/4") ...this was first day still during break in...
7.62x39 SI-D upper.
The accuracy of any good AR can be better and I am pretty sure there are other examples. The fact is that if noveske M4 barrels would be extraordinarily accurate consistently then we would see them in any match firing line but they are not there.
Krieger, Lilja, Lothar Walter, Shilen are some of the most popular ones.
No dobut noveske use nice barrels and are great systems.
Also you might not see the need to take a snapshots of your targets, I respect that, but when you make any accuracy claims in a forum do not be surprised if fellow thread followers want to see pictures and learn more about the details and actual experience.
.223 wylde RRA NM
DTI 16"HB ML no chrome (M16 BCG)
6x45 Lothar Walter upper
5 shot group (4 inside 1/4") ...this was first day still during break in...
7.62x39 SI-D upper.
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Lots of choices
I have three ARs. Two are Fulton Armory (Predator 24" heavy barrel and Phanton Carbine). I also have an Olympic Arms built up about 20 years ago from parts. I don't know anything about Oly Arms finished rifles but my Oly AR kit was accurate and had a good trigger and over the years, I've added a target trigger and a float tube.
I've not built one myself, but looks like a good option. Fulton Armory is good stuff but you pay for what you get.
Rick Bunn
Alexandria
I have three ARs. Two are Fulton Armory (Predator 24" heavy barrel and Phanton Carbine). I also have an Olympic Arms built up about 20 years ago from parts. I don't know anything about Oly Arms finished rifles but my Oly AR kit was accurate and had a good trigger and over the years, I've added a target trigger and a float tube.
I've not built one myself, but looks like a good option. Fulton Armory is good stuff but you pay for what you get.
Rick Bunn
Alexandria
dc.fireman
Member
Sola - Give these guys a call:
http://www.faitharmory.com/
They're located in California, and my brother uses them for his AR needs fairly regularly. They specialize in California legal AR's. Good Luck.
http://www.faitharmory.com/
They're located in California, and my brother uses them for his AR needs fairly regularly. They specialize in California legal AR's. Good Luck.
Thank you guys for all your advise. I'm still looking. I know this is nothing like an AR but I came across this and like the way it looks. Shoots 9 as well so it would be cheaper. I'm still looking for an AR but was wondering if anyone has experience or opinions on this.
http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/carbines/carbines_9mm.html
http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/carbines/carbines_9mm.html
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