You Don't Have to Aim a Shotgun Mythbusting VIDEO

[PTMCCAIN]

Thanks for the good discussion, guys, and I agree that pointing/aiming...it's all being intentional about where the shot is going, not simply pulling the trigger from the hip, spraying and praying.

 

[PBR Streetgang]

back in the day of muzzle-loaders, the shotgun had a larger pattern being controlled by the length of the barrel and some choking.In the advent of the shot-cup that contains the pellets, the spread was closed up and a pattern was created.Some law enforcement shotguns go as far as having a muzzle attachment that can alter the spread of their pattern vertically or horizontally.
Statistically most confrontations occur within 6 feet 75% of the time and within 21 feet 85% of the time. With shotgun shells ,the spread at those distances is minimal.
As far as the matter of birdshot ,I've personally seen numerous persons shot at that distance and they didn't survive .It was as if they were shot with a powdered slug,the majority of time the shot-cup was found inside of the wound.

 

[kris7047th]

i tend to think that saying was fostered from short bbl shotguns with open chokes firing down a 30 foot hallway. pointing it in the center will cover quite a bit of area.

my mossy 88 with 18.5" bbl and 00 buck with pattern about 1.5 feet at 10 yards.

Have you checked for sure?

 

[kris7047th]

back in the day of muzzle-loaders, the shotgun had a larger pattern being controlled by the length of the barrel and some choking.In the advent of the shot-cup that contains the pellets, the spread was closed up and a pattern was created.Some law enforcement shotguns go as far as having a muzzle attachment that can alter the spread of their pattern vertically or horizontally.
Statistically most confrontations occur within 6 feet 75% of the time and within 21 feet 85% of the time. With shotgun shells ,the spread at those distances is minimal.
As far as the matter of birdshot ,I've personally seen numerous persons shot at that distance and they didn't survive .It was as if they were shot with a powdered slug,the majority of time the shot-cup was found inside of the wound.

That sounds to a bit of a stretch. I would NEVER use bird shot for HD. Only buck or slug.

 

[KennyFSU]

Have you ever seen Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds?


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[kris7047th]

You mean the movie? lol Of course, when it first aired back in the 60's

 

[PBR Streetgang]

Kris, I'm not advocating using birdshot for personal defense, but spent part of my career as a LEO investigator covering shooting incidents in a prominent city in the northeast US.
Most of the shotguns used were sawed off single barrel types, and were stolen.

 

[SigMic]

Quick question to clarify...For those who are saying that you must aim a shotgun in a home defense situation, am I reading you properly that you don't believe you can make good hits from 3-7 yards (in home distances) by simply pulling a shotgun up to your shoulder and pointing the barrel at your intruder without even taking a sight picture?

I don't shoot a lot of shotgun, so I'm not going to boldly stand and proclaim anything, but I know that I can do said activity from 3-5 yards with a handgun that's much smaller and easier to tweak the angle of and throw the shot off. I would think that anybody who spends much time shooting a long gun (rifle or shotgun - length of gun is the issue, not the spread) would be able to pull off hits at this distance. Note: I'm not talking about hip shooting here.

 

[kris7047th]

*moving target* aiming under stress = more misses than you would expect. Throw in the possibility of low light/no light ...

 

[oldguy870]

If you realistically expect bad guys at 25-35 yards, you need to choose a rifle not a shotgun. In the situation a shotgun should be used in, it will be 3-5 yards. It you can't point a shotgun at a man sized target 3-5 yards away and get hits, you deserve to die so your poor-shooting genes are not spread to the rest of society.

 

[JERRY]

Have you checked for sure?

of course not, i pulled those numbers out of midair. what do you think?

 

[PBR Streetgang]

As far as patterns,I've fired my share of scatterguns and have learned each gun is a bit different. Shotguns can be finicky of what shells it likes. I've shot consecutively serial numbered shotguns that shot different patterns with shells out of the same box. A serious shotgunner will try various loads and find what works for their shotgun.
I've also found that the different brands of shells will pattern different due to their loading and shotcup construction.
The only way to get proficient is to get out there and shoot!!!!!!!!

 

[kris7047th]

Lol....
I was just recently involved in another thread where I too say you must "aim" a shotgun.
But evidently, I'm a down-talking, narrow-minded and insulting person for stating the obvious.



huntsman.....back at ya brother.
No disrespect intended here at all....but....

I have hunted off and on my whole life.
I also spent 20 years in the army and just retired in 2009.
What I can tell you is this:
Not only is there a difference between shooting clays and combat...
But the difference itself is "HUGE"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not only are the clays not shooting back at you like in a possible HD situation...
But also, I don't know a single "sane" person who would depend on skeet loads to protect the very lives of their adored loved ones, nor themselves either.
It's absolutely foolish at best, and completely detrimental at worst.

Buckshot patterns in a completely different manner.
I don't care if you can hit 10 out of 10 clays 100 times in a row with trap/skeet/clay loads.
Do it with buckshot, and then we will have something to discuss about transferable skills.

Read this and take it to heart. What I am getting at.

 

[kris7047th]

I took a four day class and we did a lot of shooting at steel torso size targets at 25 and 35 yards with 00 buck. Many would argue that is a very sweet distance for a shotgun. On day four they gave a test to add some stress to the training. Mind younfirnthe past four days we had been shooting and even under timed conditions and we were engaging anywhere from one to four targets. I was amazed at how easy it is to miss at this distance. This was my third shotgun class and I'm pretty good with it. Toss in some simulated stress and things really get much more difficult.

And this ...

 

[Greybeard]

I have been patterning different buckshot loads for going on 16 years in private indoor range. I have a chopped (but still legal) 20 gauge Ithica Featherweight that won't consistently keep all of the pellets from most manufacturers on a B-27 target at 50'. Then also have a chopped 12 gauge that, with Federal's Flight Control wad, puts all 9 pellets into a 4" group at 50feet. Buddy's 18" barrel Mossberg with supposedly same "cylinder" barrel, puts that same load (including the shotcup) at the same distance into a 2" hole.

And having hunted with 'em for pushing 50 years now, I'm in the camp that believes that, yes, point shooting skills aquired at fast-movers (whether clays, quail, jack rabbits or feral hogs) are indeed transferrable to self defense.

Bottom line though: Many variables with shotguns and loads, but the only way to know for sure is to get out and shoot 'em!

 

[Owen Sparks]

A properly fitted shotgun will hit right where you are looking. I won a tactical shotgun match once and did not realize that my Hi-Viz front sight had come off until someone found it picking up empty shells afterward.

 

[huntsman]

I’m an instinctive shooter and it works, from birds to deer and bipedal targets as well I’d think, buck and bird shot or slugs you can shoot it all with proper gun fit just let the onboard computer do it’s thing.

 

[Youngster]

As far as shot spread aiding hit probability goes, I've always found that "up close", I don't need it anyway, it's only as the distance increases is it likely to make a big difference, and even then more in the way of catching a more difficult target that's moving and/or mostly behind cover.

I've never understood the attitude of "it doesn't spread much up close, so what's the point?"

 

[Skribs]

I guess we need three definitions, then. If "aim" is using a front and rear sight, "point" is using a good fit and a front sight, what is it called when you use no sights and just put the muzzle in the general direction of the target?

As to this video, I don't think it really answered the myth it set out to. There are numerous videos out there already showing the spread of 00B and what it means. What SHOULD be done is the difference between aiming and just guessing.

 

[PTMCCAIN]

Skribs, that's a very good point, I do a "with/without" aiming video as a "Part Two" appreciate your input.

But, for the purpose of this video, I wanted to demonstrate how a 00 buck blast patterns, to demonstrate that it is a really tight group and needs aiming, not just "let's see how this goes..." blasting from the hip, etc.

I always appreciate constructive criticism and intelligent feedback. Thanks!

 

[Jeff F]

Don't have to aim, just go out and do some slug work and you will find out you do have to aim.

 

[Telekinesis]

A properly fitted shotgun will hit right where you are looking. I won a tactical shotgun match once and did not realize that my Hi-Viz front sight had come off until someone found it picking up empty shells afterward.

I know that a few national/international level competitive trap shooters completely remove their beads and just shoot based off of the ramp. I always preferred the beads though. I don't look at them when I'm shooting, but they provide a good reference point when you're mounting the gun.

I'm of the opinion that rifle/pistol shooting and shotgun shooting are just fundamentally different. Rifle and pistols, you're lining up sights to intersect with one point on the target. But with shotguns (at least the technique I and the vast majority of competitive shooters I've shot with use) you get on the gun, line up the sights, and then look over the sights and focus on the target. Its not really aiming because you're not looking at sights while shooting, but its not point shooting either because you are actively tracking the targets. The shot goes where you are looking, not where a bead/front sight would be (which is why comb height is so important).

I'm not sure where I heard it (could have very likely been on here somewhere) but I've always thought this quote was a good summary of the topic:

"Of course you have to aim it! Its a shotgun, not a claymore on a stick!"

 

[Skribs]

I'd still say there's a difference between using a perfect fit and looking where you're shooting vs. just guess-and-click.

 

[PTMCCAIN]

"Not a claymore on a stick."

That's a keeper.

 

[MCgunner]

I've been shooting a shotgun every hunting season for the last 50 years on ducks, doves, and geese, mostly. A few rabbits when I was younger. NONE of my shotguns have sights and one doesn't even have a bead. I figure if I can go 1 for 2 on DOVES, I am not going to have a problem on a person across the room. I don't know how much I could "practice" on stationary targets with 00 and get any better with my shotguns. Hitting a bird is much more a function of fit and feel with the firearm and skill through repetition by the shooter than is shooting at a stationary target with rifle sights. Any IDIOT can hit a stationary target at 10 yards with a shotgun with aimed fire. If that stationary target is ducking for cover, it becomes more difficult. Jump a rabbit at 10 yards and hit him. Now, do that with a .22 rifle. I've done that, too, but I don't hit 'em with as much regularity as with a shotgun. But, either is much more a point shooting thing. You don't have time to aim. But, in effect, you ARE aiming, just not using sights. You shoot where you look. But, fit of the gun is very important. You don't do that from the hip, you do it from the shoulder looking down the rib. That is kinda like aiming, but you don't use sights.

Clays is better practice than any stationary targets with a shotgun IMHO.